Re: Why is my GTI doing this to me? (OP UPDATE)

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CarGuru > Volkswagen > Re: Why is my GTI doing this to me? (OP UPDATE) 19 March 2005 21:49:32

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Re: Why is my GTI doing this to me? (OP UPDATE)
Kent 19 March 2005 09:38:20
	Interesting development in my troubleshooting of this problem over the last few days. Many of you may know that the KE-Jetronic CIS-E system on my car includes two throttle switches, one for full throttle enrichment/RPM limitation, and the other an idle switch for deceleration fuel shutoff. The idle switch also provides input to the idle stabilizer valve. Whenever the throttle valve is closed such as when decelerating or coasting, the idle switch is closed (continuity), sending a signal to the computer. If the computer receives this signal AND engine speed is above 1600 RPM, the computer cuts off fuel to the injectors by reversing current to the differential pressure regulator. Fuel flow is then restored by the computer once the engine speed drops below 1300 RPM. This function is intended to improve fuel economy. Well, it seemed to me that a malfunction of the idle switch might be sending erroneous signals to the control unit, resulting in fuel cut-off at inappropriate times. So I thought I would check out the idle switch (which is buried out-of-sight under the throttle body) to see if anything was amiss. First off, I noticed that the full throttle switch made a very definite clicking sound when engaged. I expected the idle switch to do the same, but it didn't. I then removed the throttle body to get a better look at the idle switch. It was almost completely covered with grease and grime. (Long story, I recently repaired a leak in the intake system at the bypass hose for the air-shrouded injectors. It exits from the bottom of the rubber bellows that connects to the throttle body. Not only was this leak allowing unmetered air to enter the system, but small amounts of oil from crankcase ventilation was exiting in the vicinity of the idle switch. I didn't notice this when I repaired the hose as I removed the bellows and repaired the connection off the car). I cleaned the idle switch as well I could, and after poking it a bit, the plunger started to make the clicking sound I expected. I checked for continuity when the plunger was in, and it checked out. When I reassembled everything, I left the throttle switches disconnected just to see if the power loss problem recurred. I've driven the car over 250 miles since then, in all kinds of traffic, and the problem has not recurred. This is by far the longest I have gone without the power loss problem since it began many months ago. Not only that, but the car no longer stalls at stop signs. Sure, the idle bounces around a bit since the ISV isn't receiving the proper signal from the idle switch, but the car never comes close to stalling. I definitely think I'm on to something here. My theory is that the idle switch was malfunctioning by intermittently sending a closed signal to the control unit even when the throttle was open. This behavior was probably caused by a combination of wear (it's the original switch), oil/dirt contamination, and engine vibration. Since the RPMs would be well above 1600 (especially while cruising down the highway, where the problem tended to occur) the erroneous signal would cause the control unit to cut off fuel to the injectors until engine speed dropped below 1300 RPM. This is why the car always returned to a proper idle after I coasted to a stop by the side of the road, or pushed in the clutch to disengage the engine from the drivetrain. If I just let the engine turn with the wheels while frantically pressing the accelerator, power would not return. I'm going to drive around for a week or two with the throttle switches disengaged just to make sure I've isolated the problem. Once I'm satisfied that the problem is gone, I'll install a new idle switch. I'll provide an update indicating success or failure at a later date. Right now I'm optimistically assuming success. THANKS TO EVERYONE FOR THEIR THOUGHTFUL CONTRIBUTIONS TO MY TROUBLESHOOTING, ESPECIALLY THOSE THAT SENT DETAILED RESPONSES TO MY EMAIL. YOU DEFINITELY GOT THE WHEELS IN MY HEAD TURNING. I COULDN'T HAVE DONE IT WITHOUT YOU. -- Kent 1987 VW GTI 8V, original owner, 222,000+ miles "Kent" <immortala2@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:113jl7rpucoc743@corp.supernews.com...> This problem with my GTI is driving me CRAZY!!! I'll be driving along on highway, and the engine will suddenly and completely lose power. There is> absolutely no response from the accelerator. When I coast to a stop at the> side of the highway, the car returns to idle as if nothing happened. This> may happen again in a few minutes, hours, or days. It's completely> intermittent and can't be duplicated in my garage. I also note that the feels a bit sluggish, and tends to stall now and then when the clutch is> released at stop signs, etc.> I've also noticed that it seems to take longer than it used to for the car> to start, as if fuel pressure is taking more time to build up or system> pressure is not being maintained after stop. I just recently replaced the> fuel line to cylinder #1, and I was surprised that there was pretty much fuel pressure at the fuel distributor when I loosened the banjo bolt. The> car had been off overnight, but I still expected a little pressure.> This is what I've done so far so far:> - Checked for vacuum leaks, rips, tears in the intake; none found.> - Checked for fuel leaks; none found.> - New sparkplugs, wires, cap, rotor.> - New ignition switch.> - New fuel injectors/o-rings.> - New fuel pump relay.> - New fuel filter.> - Checked timing; okay.> - Almost new in-tank (transfer) fuel pump; no loud buzzing at main pump.> I really don't have the gauge and fittings required to check fuel pressure,> but since the problem is intermittent I'm not sure it would tell me> anything. The main pump is about 10 years old, so I'm going to go ahead replace it too. If that doesn't do the trick, I'm not sure what else to do!> What about the coil? HELP!> -- > Kent> 1987 VW GTI 8V, original owner, 221,800+ miles
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Randolph 19 March 2005 11:09:11 [ permanent link ]
	Kent wrote:> Interesting development in my troubleshooting of this problem over the last> few days. Many of you may know that the KE-Jetronic CIS-E system on my car> includes two throttle switches, one for full throttle enrichment/RPM> limitation, and the other an idle switch for deceleration fuel shutoff. The> idle switch also provides input to the idle stabilizer valve. Whenever the> throttle valve is closed such as when decelerating or coasting, the idle> switch is closed (continuity), sending a signal to the computer. If the> computer receives this signal AND engine speed is above 1600 RPM, the> computer cuts off fuel to the injectors by reversing current to the> differential pressure regulator. Fuel flow is then restored by the computer> once the engine speed drops below 1300 RPM. This function is intended to> improve fuel economy. Good thinking! And thanks for posting back, reading (pending) solutions is always interesting, not to mention educational. I had the opposite problem about a year ago, my idle switch was broken and would never close. This caused idle to be way out of spec, particularly with the A/C on. From the dealer you can get the switch only with the full throttle switch and the wiring harness, priced the wrong side of $100. At the junk yard I found a number of CIS-e engines, but they all had broken idle switches. If you are handy with a soldering iron, you can use the switch from a Digifant engine. (The California variety of Digifant (I?) uses switches, I believe the 49 state variety (II?) uses a potentiometer). The switches are the same as CIS-e, but they are wired differently. For Digifant the two switches are wired in parallel and the connector is 2-pin. CIS-e uses a 3-pin connector. I cut the idle switch out from my harness and soldered in a "new" one from a Digifant engine.
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Matt B. 19 March 2005 21:07:17 [ permanent link ]
	"Randolph" <trash@junkmail.com> wrote in message news:423BD01E.39F3E860@junkmail.com...>At the junk yard I found a number of CIS-e engines, but they all had broken >idle switches. If you are handy with a soldering iron, you can use the >switch from a Digifant engine. (The California variety of Digifant (I?) >uses switches, I believe the 49 state variety (II?) uses a potentiometer). Other way around (sort of). You are correct that California is Digifant I and 49 state is Digifant II. But it's Digifant I that uses the potentiometer and II that uses the switches. And this distinction only applies to 1991-1992 vehicles. 1990 and older Digifant cars were Digifant II nationwide.
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Kent 19 March 2005 21:49:32 [ permanent link ]
	Yeah, I would have expected the idle switch to fail open, which would seem to be the more typical failure mode for these sorts of switches. I'm still hesitant to claim complete success since I can't get the switch to misbehave on-demand in the garage. But the car runs fine with the switch unhooked, so we'll see. $100+ for this switch?! I figured it was a dealer item, but I hadn't yet checked pricing. I did notice that the idle switch couldn't be replaced separate from the full-throttle switch and harness. I'll likely just bite the bullet and spring for the new switch; I'd probably spend more time than I'd expect looking for a reliable used switch or modifying one from a different FI system, and my time is worth something. Thanks for the recommendations though, they're much appreciated. -- Kent 1987 VW GTI 8V, original owner, 222,000+ miles "Randolph" <trash@junkmail.com> wrote in message news:423BD01E.39F3E860@junkmail.com...> Kent wrote:> > Interesting development in my troubleshooting of this problem over the last> > few days. Many of you may know that the KE-Jetronic CIS-E system on my includes two throttle switches, one for full throttle enrichment/RPM> > limitation, and the other an idle switch for deceleration fuel shutoff. idle switch also provides input to the idle stabilizer valve. Whenever throttle valve is closed such as when decelerating or coasting, the idle> > switch is closed (continuity), sending a signal to the computer. If the> > computer receives this signal AND engine speed is above 1600 RPM, the> > computer cuts off fuel to the injectors by reversing current to the> > differential pressure regulator. Fuel flow is then restored by the computer> > once the engine speed drops below 1300 RPM. This function is intended to> > improve fuel economy.> Good thinking! And thanks for posting back, reading (pending) solutions> is always interesting, not to mention educational.> I had the opposite problem about a year ago, my idle switch was broken> and would never close. This caused idle to be way out of spec,> particularly with the A/C on. From the dealer you can get the switch> only with the full throttle switch and the wiring harness, priced the> wrong side of $100.> At the junk yard I found a number of CIS-e engines, but they all had> broken idle switches. If you are handy with a soldering iron, you can> use the switch from a Digifant engine. (The California variety of> Digifant (I?) uses switches, I believe the 49 state variety (II?) uses a> potentiometer). The switches are the same as CIS-e, but they are wired> differently. For Digifant the two switches are wired in parallel and the> connector is 2-pin. CIS-e uses a 3-pin connector. I cut the idle switch> out from my harness and soldered in a "new" one from a Digifant engine.
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CarGuru > Volkswagen > Re: Why is my GTI doing this to me? (OP UPDATE) 19 March 2005 21:49:32

	see also: Re: Why aren't these standard PRACTICE… Transmision not shifting properly 1994 Ford Escort 1.9L Engine…		pass tests:		see also: NEWCAR Engine Light Airbag light on Peugeot 206 year 2000

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Re: Why is my GTI doing this to me? (OP UPDATE)

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