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CarGuru > Volkswagen > Make fuel from Water? 31 March 2005 16:45:43

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Make fuel from Water?
BananaRepublican 25 March 2005 20:00:47
	http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ned=us&q=water+fuel&btnmeta%3Dsearch%3 Dsearch=Search+the+Web H two O . extract the Hydrogen and off you go?> g adds. MONEY , what a concept
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John Willis 25 March 2005 22:30:25 [ permanent link ]
	On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:00:47 -0800, BananaRepublican <georgew.k@humboldt1.com> scribbled this interesting note: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ned=us&q=water+fuel&btnmeta%3Dsearch%3>Dsearch=Search+the+Web> H two O . extract the Hydrogen and off you go? It costs money. First you have to break apart the molecules and that takes energy. Where do you get the energy to do this? Then you have to recombine the molecules, creating heat. In an internal combustion engine, not all that heat gets used so you lose there as well. Remember, there is no such thing as a free lunch. Somewhere someone pays for it. Backtrack the source of the electricity to break apart the water and you find losses. Transmission losses in the power grid exist. No IC engine is all that efficient. These are similar factors that work against all electric cars. All you really end up doing is creating more pollution because of these various inefficiencies and you shift the location of the pollution someplace else, possibly hundreds of miles away at a generating plant. Good luck. -- John Willis (Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)
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Dennis Wik 26 March 2005 02:08:10 [ permanent link ]
	Actually for the past year VW of China has been running a car on heavy water (hydrogen peroxide). There is not much room in the car as it is crammed with equipment but this is the first one built that works. I'm sure if you google information, you can find updates and pictures. I have not checked on it for a while. href="http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=4025706&a=30209382&vt=vp">Den's 1977 Puma</a>
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Roger Ivie 26 March 2005 02:47:51 [ permanent link ]
	On 2005-03-25, Dennis Wik <weewiktype1@webtv.net> wrote:> Actually for the past year VW of China has been running a car on heavy> water (hydrogen peroxide). Hydrogen peroxide is not heavy water. Heavy water is water made with dueterium instead of hydrogen; a dueterium atom has an extra neutron in the nucleus. I don't know whether/if there's a special word for water made with tritium (two extra neutrons). Hydrogen peroxide has a single hydrogen atom for each oxygen atom. If you made up a pitcher of Kool-Aid with heavy water, you wouldn't know the difference. If you made one with hydrogen peroxide, you wouldn't survive the drinking. -- Roger Ivie rivie@ridgenet.net http://anachronda.webhop.org/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.12 GCS/P d- s:+++ a+ C++ UB--(++++) !P L- !E W++ N++ o-- K w O- M+ V+++ PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP t+ 5+ X-- R tv++ b++ DI+++ D+ G e++ h--- r+++ z+++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
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Ilambert 26 March 2005 03:15:25 [ permanent link ]
	Hi.Where is this information on cars that run on hydrogen peroxide?It sounds very interesting. "Roger Ivie" <rivie@ridgenet.net> wrote in message news:slrnd495fk.u3.rivie@Stench.no.domain...> On 2005-03-25, Dennis Wik <weewiktype1@webtv.net> wrote:>> Actually for the past year VW of China has been running a car on heavy>> water (hydrogen peroxide).> Hydrogen peroxide is not heavy water. Heavy water is water made with> dueterium instead of hydrogen; a dueterium atom has an extra neutron in> the nucleus. I don't know whether/if there's a special word for water> made with tritium (two extra neutrons). Hydrogen peroxide has a single> hydrogen atom for each oxygen atom.> If you made up a pitcher of Kool-Aid with heavy water, you wouldn't know> the difference. If you made one with hydrogen peroxide, you wouldn't> survive the drinking.> -- > Roger Ivie> rivie@ridgenet.net> http://anachronda.webhop.org/> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----> Version: 3.12> GCS/P d- s:+++ a+ C++ UB--(++++) !P L- !E W++ N++ o-- K w O- M+ V+++ PS+> PE++ Y+ PGP t+ 5+ X-- R tv++ b++ DI+++ D+ G e++ h--- r+++ z+++> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
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Shag 26 March 2005 03:44:14 [ permanent link ]
	On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:47:51 GMT, Roger Ivie <rivie@ridgenet.net> wrote: On 2005-03-25, Dennis Wik <weewiktype1@webtv.net> wrote:>> Actually for the past year VW of China has been running a car on heavy>> water (hydrogen peroxide).> Hydrogen peroxide is not heavy water. Heavy water is water made with>dueterium instead of hydrogen; a dueterium atom has an extra neutron in>the nucleus. I don't know whether/if there's a special word for water>made with tritium (two extra neutrons). Hydrogen peroxide has a single>hydrogen atom for each oxygen atom.> If you made up a pitcher of Kool-Aid with heavy water, you wouldn't know>the difference. If you made one with hydrogen peroxide, you wouldn't>survive the drinking. Don't bet on it. hic --- "There's nothing wrong with a little shooting as long as the right people get shot." - Inspector Harry Callahan
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Dan Kiehnle 26 March 2005 04:37:52 [ permanent link ]
	"ilambert" <ilambert@charter.net> wrote in message news:lY01e.13892$g95.12645@fe07.lga...> Hi.Where is this information on cars that run on hydrogen peroxide?It sounds> very interesting. I'd rather find out where the information is on the car that runs on Kool-Aid! What ever happened to the guy who figured out how to run jet aircraft, diesel engines and gasoline engines on naptha and water? He was working with Caterpiller (the tractor folks) and it looked like it was really going to be successful. Suddenly, all information vanished. Kind of makes you wonder if the oil companies saw a threat on the horizon and didn't like it. Dan
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Michael Cecil 26 March 2005 04:49:07 [ permanent link ]
	On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:47:51 GMT, Roger Ivie <rivie@ridgenet.net> wrote: On 2005-03-25, Dennis Wik <weewiktype1@webtv.net> wrote:>> Actually for the past year VW of China has been running a car on heavy>> water (hydrogen peroxide).> Hydrogen peroxide is not heavy water. Heavy water is water made with>dueterium instead of hydrogen; a dueterium atom has an extra neutron in>the nucleus. I don't know whether/if there's a special word for water>made with tritium (two extra neutrons). Hydrogen peroxide has a single>hydrogen atom for each oxygen atom. Wasn't one of those big submarine disasters (the Kursk?) thought to be caused by the hydrogen peroxide fuel in a torpedo leaking? If you made up a pitcher of Kool-Aid with heavy water, you wouldn't know>the difference. If you made one with hydrogen peroxide, you wouldn't>survive the drinking. I doubt you could swallow much. Just gargling with that stuff is enough to make me start vomiting. -- Michael Cecil http://home.comcast.net/~macecil/ 1970 VW Beetle "Millennium Sparrow"
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Shag 26 March 2005 04:52:59 [ permanent link ]
	On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 16:37:52 -0800, "Dan Kiehnle" <liggy@cablespeed.com> wrote: "ilambert" <ilambert@charter.net> wrote in message>news:lY01e.13892$g95.12645@fe07.lga...>> Hi.Where is this information on cars that run on hydrogen peroxide?It>sounds>> very interesting.> I'd rather find out where the information is on the car that runs on>Kool-Aid!> What ever happened to the guy who figured out how to run jet aircraft,>diesel engines and gasoline engines on naptha and water? He was working with>Caterpiller (the tractor folks) and it looked like it was really going to be>successful. Suddenly, all information vanished. Kind of makes you wonder if>the oil companies saw a threat on the horizon and didn't like it.> http://zapatopi.net/blackhelicopters.html --- "There's nothing wrong with a little shooting as long as the right people get shot." - Inspector Harry Callahan
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Dennis Wik 26 March 2005 05:54:57 [ permanent link ]
	Ok, so it's not heavy water but that is not the point. I went to google to see what I could find on the car. I put in the words, hydrogen peroxide china car. 17000 + pages came up and you guys can read about the china vw that runs on wet stuff not from OPEC. This is old news (last year) and not BS. So read about it and discuss it, not hydrogen peroxide......I should have worn a condom. href="http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=4025706&a=30209382&vt=vp">Den's 1977 Puma</a>
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Shag 26 March 2005 07:10:30 [ permanent link ]
	On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 19:54:57 -0600, weewiktype1@webtv.net (Dennis Wik) wrote: <snip>>...I should have worn a condom.> Story of my life. --- "There's nothing wrong with a little shooting as long as the right people get shot." - Inspector Harry Callahan
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Jjs 26 March 2005 21:08:53 [ permanent link ]
	Hydrogen Peroxide was a popular rocket fuel in Germany's early efforts, some of them were manned aircraft. It was just too expensive to make and very dangerous to handle at that time. If an aircraft crashed and the fuel spilled onto the pilot, it's likely that all that would be left is his flightsuit and a few bones. Pure h2o2 interacts with catalase (blood 'n stuff) at a literally explosive rate.
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Jjs 26 March 2005 21:11:37 [ permanent link ]
	"Dennis Wik" <weewiktype1@webtv.net> wrote in message news:7991-42448BCA-388@storefull-3152.bay.webtv.net...> Actually for the past year VW of China has been running a car on heavy> water (hydrogen peroxide). We know what you mean, Den. That's the important part. Here's a link: http://goldsea.com/Asiagate/410/18cars.html BTW, with some luck I might be going to China on business in the foreseeable future. I'll take pictures.
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Tim Rogers 27 March 2005 04:12:11 [ permanent link ]
	"jjs" <jjs@nospam.net> wrote in message news:114b5p4892nco69@news.supernews.com...> Hydrogen Peroxide was a popular rocket fuel in Germany's early efforts, some> of them were manned aircraft. It was just too expensive to make and very> dangerous to handle at that time. If an aircraft crashed and the fuel> spilled onto the pilot, it's likely that all that would be left is his> flightsuit and a few bones. Pure h2o2 interacts with catalase (blood 'n> stuff) at a literally explosive rate.> ................Hydrogen peroxide was the oxidizer and was known as T-Stoff. The fuel was a mixture of hydrazine hydrate & methanol known as C-Stoff. C-Stoff was indeed very dangerous and getting it on skin or breathing the fumes was often deadly for those who filled the tanks on the Me 163 Komet........the worlds first and last operational rocket powered fighter. I learned a little about the history of that plane when I built and flew a scale remote control model of the Komet back during the early 90's that was powerd by a solid propellant cartridge that is used by model rocket hobbyists. It was essentially a glider for most of the flight after about a 3 second burn of the cartridge which propelled it to a height where I had trouble controlling its flight attitude because it was so high up. The velocity during climb out was too much for my balsa & silk span construction methods and it didn't hold up for more than a half dozen flights before it disintegrated on me while I was diving it toward the model field.
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Dennis Wik 27 March 2005 04:53:56 [ permanent link ]
	Thanks John, I would love to hear your reports. Dennis href="http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=4025706&a=30209382&vt=vp">Den's 1977 Puma</a>
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Jjs 27 March 2005 05:07:46 [ permanent link ]
	Thanks for the extra information, Tim. What was the little propeller on the Komet's nose for? Airspeed detector? Looks pretty strange.
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Jjs 27 March 2005 05:19:00 [ permanent link ]
	Modern rocket-plane? http://www.xcor.com/ez.html
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Bob 27 March 2005 05:57:09 [ permanent link ]
	I think I remember that the water was very corrosive to the engines. They tried running the engines on pure diesel or gas at shut down but that didn't seem to work out. "Dan Kiehnle" <liggy@cablespeed.com> wrote in message news:vpadnTQS9p9MM9nfRVn-pw@cablespeedwa.com...> "ilambert" <ilambert@charter.net> wrote in message> news:lY01e.13892$g95.12645@fe07.lga...>> Hi.Where is this information on cars that run on hydrogen peroxide?It> sounds>> very interesting.> I'd rather find out where the information is on the car that runs on> Kool-Aid!> What ever happened to the guy who figured out how to run jet aircraft,> diesel engines and gasoline engines on naptha and water? He was working > with> Caterpiller (the tractor folks) and it looked like it was really going to > be> successful. Suddenly, all information vanished. Kind of makes you wonder > if> the oil companies saw a threat on the horizon and didn't like it.> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
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Roger Ivie 27 March 2005 08:18:48 [ permanent link ]
	On 2005-03-27, jjs <jjs@nospam.net> wrote:> Thanks for the extra information, Tim. What was the little propeller on the > Komet's nose for? Airspeed detector? Looks pretty strange. My understanding is that it's a generator, but I'm no expert. -- Roger Ivie rivie@ridgenet.net http://anachronda.webhop.org/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.12 GCS/P d- s:+++ a+ C++ UB--(++++) !P L- !E W++ N++ o-- K w O- M+ V+++ PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP t+ 5+ X-- R tv++ b++ DI+++ D+ G e++ h--- r+++ z+++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
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Shag 27 March 2005 19:04:15 [ permanent link ]
	On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:12:11 -0500, "Tim Rogers" <thr@stny.rr.com> wrote:> The>velocity during climb out was too much for my balsa & silk span construction>methods and it didn't hold up for more than a half dozen flights before it>disintegrated on me while I was diving it toward the model field.> Tim, where did you say you work again? NASA? --- "There's nothing wrong with a little shooting as long as the right people get shot." - Inspector Harry Callahan
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Tim Rogers 27 March 2005 19:37:34 [ permanent link ]
	"Roger Ivie" <rivie@ridgenet.net> wrote in message news:slrnd4cd18.1l1.rivie@Stench.no.domain...> My understanding is that it's a generator, but I'm no expert.> ................I think that's right, it's been awhile since I was reading about the Komet several years ago. .......I remember that weight was a huge dillemma for the engineers who designed the Komet because of the scarcity of aluminum & others lightweight alloys during WWII in Germany. There are no remnants of the thousands of aircraft that were shot down over German occupied Europe because every scrap was melted down and used for the German war effort. The Komet couldn't afford to carry a lead/acid battery because of its weight, I'd guess. Every small amount of weight was that much less fuel on a plane that barely had enough fuel to be launched up to bomber formations that were usually flying at high altitudes. I remember reading that the Germans recruited only their smallest pilots for the Komet and that most of them were bantam-weights compared to the average fighter pilot. There was even a plan to train women and adolescent boys to fly it that never got implemented before the war ended.
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Tim Rogers 27 March 2005 20:37:02 [ permanent link ]
	"jjs" <jjs@nospam.net> wrote in message news:114c2g333679927@news.supernews.com...> Modern rocket-plane?> http://www.xcor.com/ez.html> .................The two minute burnout time tells you why rocket propulsion will never be practical on a winged aircraft. Also, what that article didn't mention is that the fuel tank probably has to be jettisoned for obvious safety reasons before landing. If there was an engine malfunction in the first few seconds after liftoff where the fuel tank couldn't yet be jettisoned. cremation ceremonies for Mr Rutan could be performed right on the runway......after the fact.
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Dan Kiehnle 28 March 2005 05:21:48 [ permanent link ]
	Here's some information on that fuel that is naptha/water. Check it out...and don't gargle with it! http://www.betterworld.com/BWZ/9608/product.htm Dan
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Tim Rogers 30 March 2005 05:06:03 [ permanent link ]
	"Jens Lerch" <jlerch@mail.com> wrote in message news:e7ecd576.0503291255.444b104e@posting.google.com...> All 15 flights of the EZ-Rocket were done without jettisoning of the> belly fuel tank, which is physically impossible. The liquid oxygen,> which weighs about three times as much as the alcohol fuel can be> dumped in flight, and this has been demonstrated in flight. Also safe> landing with full tanks, less the propellant required to get to> take-off speed, is possible.> The idea of jettisoning the belly tank never even occured to us,> considering that the EZ-Rocket's objective was to demonstrate economic> operations.> .............Thanks for responding Jens. I guess I'm just paranoid about the possibility of a hard landing causing an impact on that low-slung fuel tank. If a plane similar to this ever did become certified for general use, do you envisage some other configuration that takes into account the pilots who aren't experienced and qualified as Burt Rutan?
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CarGuru > Volkswagen > Make fuel from Water? 31 March 2005 16:45:43

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Make fuel from Water?

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