Diesel question

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CarGuru > Technology > Diesel question 12 May 2006 03:23:20

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Diesel question
Charles 25 January 2005 06:03:10
	On an older diesel like my '85 GM 6.2L, what exactly happens when you press down on the accelerator pedal? I understand that it controls fuel in some way, but how? As I understand it, the injector pump controls the specific charge of fuel to each cylinder for each firing. If this is changed then, all you are doing is changing the mixture. It doesn't seem like you want the accelerator pedal to be a rich/lean controller. Does it somehow control the total flow rate of the fuel, and then distribute it evenly among the firings? Maybe the engine would naturally adjust its RPM until the mixture was correct? Any insight would be helpful. I've searched all over the web and can't find the answer to this.
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Charles 25 January 2005 08:04:23 [ permanent link ]
	"Kathy and Erich Coiner" <kathy.coiner@gte.net> wrote in message news:XojJd.24433$Os6.11356@trnddc08...> The duration that the injector is open is controlled by the accelerator> pedal.> So the "gas pedal" really does control the amount of fuel.> On an old mechanically controlled diesel, when you mash the pedal from > idle> the engine goes way rich and you get a big cloud of black smoke. Watch > old> heavy equipment like a bulldozer for a graphic example.> Erich> Why does the black smoke ever stop then? If you increase the fuel per injection with the gas pedal and it gets over-rich, won't it stay over-rich forever until you let off the gas? The air per injection is essentially constant I believe.
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Thomas Schдfer 25 January 2005 14:23:25 [ permanent link ]
	"Charles" wrote If you increase the fuel per injection with the gas pedal and> it gets over-rich, won't it stay over-rich forever until you let> off the gas? Yes. If you watch an old diesel car climbing a mountain or pulling a trailor (with accelerator floored), you may see a constant smoke cloud. In modern cars the amount of fuel is controlled by a computer and the position of the accelerator only one of the inputs. The electronic will avoid over rich mixtures to save fuel and environment. Thomas
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Anthony 25 January 2005 14:51:54 [ permanent link ]
	"Charles" <nospam@goaway.com> wrote in news:xNhJd.27330$OF5.3072@attbi_s52: On an older diesel like my '85 GM 6.2L, what exactly happens when you> press down on the accelerator pedal? I understand that it controls> fuel in some way, but how? As I understand it, the injector pump> controls the specific charge of fuel to each cylinder for each firing.> If this is changed then, all you are doing is changing the mixture. > It doesn't seem like you want the accelerator pedal to be a rich/lean> controller. Does it somehow control the total flow rate of the fuel,> and then distribute it evenly among the firings? Maybe the engine> would naturally adjust its RPM until the mixture was correct?> Any insight would be helpful. I've searched all over the web and> can't find the answer to this. > Keep in mind, along with what others have said, that the injector timing plays a role. Sort of like the spark timing on a gas engine, the injectors are timed to inject fuel btdc. (not much, as too much and the engine will run backwards) -- Anthony You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make better idiots. Remove sp to reply via email
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C. E. White 25 January 2005 17:21:50 [ permanent link ]
	JazzMan wrote: I don't understand what you're saying here. If you mash the> pedal to the floor on a diesel in neutral of course it's> going to rev up until something breaks, unless there is some> fuel flow control system to prevent it from doing that. Also,> don't forget that each cylinder that is firing is using some> of its power to move the other cylinders up and compressing> the air in them. That's why you can rev an engine up and hold> the revs at a certain RPM without running away. Well, that,> and internal engine friction, torque converter drag, etc. There is a govenor built into the injection pump that controls the actual fuel flow. The throttle in a diesel engine is actually setting an engine rpm (within limits), and not a power level. Ed
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Charles 25 January 2005 17:57:28 [ permanent link ]
	Wait, so which is it? I find it hard to believe that I'm setting RPM on my 6.2L light truck. It would be a drastically different "feel" from a gas engine, but it doesn't seem to be. Back to my original question though. Assuming the accelerator sets fuel per cylinder (not RPM), it seems like the engine would run away because you are not constraining the total flow of fuel to the engine on a per time basis, which really sets power. The RPM could keep going up and you'd keep giving it a certain fuel _per firing_ increasing the total fuel _flow_ to the engine. The only way I see it stopping is if the friction to be overcome by each combustion event is ramping up significantly as a function of RPM. In that case you'd eventually get to a point where the fuel for a combustion event (set by accelerator) is not enough to get to the next cylinder. "C. E. White" <cewhite3@nospam.com> wrote in message news:41F647EE.9A4F16D0@nospam.com...> JazzMan wrote:> I don't understand what you're saying here. If you mash the>> pedal to the floor on a diesel in neutral of course it's>> going to rev up until something breaks, unless there is some>> fuel flow control system to prevent it from doing that. Also,>> don't forget that each cylinder that is firing is using some>> of its power to move the other cylinders up and compressing>> the air in them. That's why you can rev an engine up and hold>> the revs at a certain RPM without running away. Well, that,>> and internal engine friction, torque converter drag, etc.> There is a govenor built into the injection pump that> controls the actual fuel flow. The throttle in a diesel> engine is actually setting an engine rpm (within limits),> and not a power level.> Ed
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Don Stauffer in Minneapolis 25 January 2005 18:38:53 [ permanent link ]
	Charles wrote: On an older diesel like my '85 GM 6.2L, what exactly happens when you press > down on the accelerator pedal? I understand that it controls fuel in some > way, but how? As I understand it, the injector pump controls the specific > charge of fuel to each cylinder for each firing. If this is changed then, > all you are doing is changing the mixture. It doesn't seem like you want > the accelerator pedal to be a rich/lean controller. Does it somehow control > the total flow rate of the fuel, and then distribute it evenly among the > firings? Maybe the engine would naturally adjust its RPM until the mixture > was correct?> Any insight would be helpful. I've searched all over the web and can't find > the answer to this. > Yes, in the standard type of industrial Diesel engine, the fuel mixture IS varied. Except at full power, the Diesel runs on a VERY lean mixture. The inherent capability of compression ignition allows the use of such lean mixtures. I am not sure if there is any throttle in auto Diesels, which do have some differences compared to big industrial Diesels in some way. But the later only control mixture.
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Don Stauffer in Minneapolis 25 January 2005 18:44:52 [ permanent link ]
	Charles wrote: Okay, so you're saying that a diesel, unlike a gas engine, has no problem > running with very high air-fuel ratios. A gas engine will run very hot like > that, will burn up plugs, etc.> This was the case because the engine designers figured high power operation was very transient in automobile operation, and didn't provide the cooling capability to keep parts cool without richening mixture. In these cars power enrichment was for TWO reasons- first to aid ignition as mixture tended to lean out, second to provide extra cooling. One of the reasons racing engines use methanol is because a methanol/air mixture can be VERY rich and still ignite, plus methanol has a great cooling ability. However, with drive to meet EPA requirements and reduce emissions, designers worked harder on cooling and materials that would be compatible with higher temps (valves, piston heads, etc), so that the rich mixture is less needed for cooling than in older engines.
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Steve 25 January 2005 19:40:39 [ permanent link ]
	"Mixture" has no meaning in a diesel engine. In the Diesel combustion cycle, the cylinder is filled to its maximum volume with air (or even pressurized if the engine is turbocharged) before the comperssion stroke even begins. Then the piston compresses the air, and at the right time an amount of fuel determined by the throttle position (and engine RPM and other factors in a modern diesel) is injected. Ideally there is ALWAYS a surplus of air to burn the fuel. During the actual injection process, the fuel injector is much like a blowtorch with a flame burning on its tip, unlike a spark-ignition engine where a flame-front spreads across a combustible mixture after the spark occurs. Charles wrote: On an older diesel like my '85 GM 6.2L, what exactly happens when you press > down on the accelerator pedal? I understand that it controls fuel in some > way, but how? As I understand it, the injector pump controls the specific > charge of fuel to each cylinder for each firing. If this is changed then, > all you are doing is changing the mixture. It doesn't seem like you want > the accelerator pedal to be a rich/lean controller. Does it somehow control > the total flow rate of the fuel, and then distribute it evenly among the > firings? Maybe the engine would naturally adjust its RPM until the mixture > was correct?> Any insight would be helpful. I've searched all over the web and can't find > the answer to this. >
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Steve 25 January 2005 19:54:41 [ permanent link ]
	Kathy and Erich Coiner wrote: The duration that the injector is open is controlled by the accelerator> pedal.> So the "gas pedal" really does control the amount of fuel.> On an old mechanically controlled diesel, when you mash the pedal from idle> the engine goes way rich and you get a big cloud of black smoke. Watch old> heavy equipment like a bulldozer for a graphic example. Bulldozer schmulldozer! http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=79457 Actually that's a malfunction- the fuel controller isn't waiting for the turbo to spool up, or the turbo isn't spooling up fast enough since that is a fairly modern GE locomotive. But it used to be the norm during throttle-up before more advanced engine control systems.
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Steve 25 January 2005 19:59:53 [ permanent link ]
	Charles wrote: If this is not an issue, then I guess I can see what you are saying. At > idle it's using only a fraction of the available air and making low power. > All the fuel gets burned, plus a lot of perfectly good air gets blown out > the pipes. Yep, which is why diesels idle so cool, and are hard to warm up without loading them. At idle, they're practically cooled by their own intake air. Why make black smoke though with the pedal floored though? Most diesels are turbocharged, and the black smoke goes away as the turbo comes up to full speed and supplies the added air the engine needs. Maybe just a faint wisp of smoke during full throttle full-load operation. It > seems that if the injector pump is properly tuned, it would never put more > fuel in than can be burned with one cylinder's worth of air. Unless they > just overtune it slightly to account for other variables, figuring they'd > rather blow smoke sometimes than not have full power available all the time.> On a non-turbo diesel (which is getting to be very rare because they perform so terribly) its exactly what you say- always a slight excess of fuel to get power. Its hard enough to get a non-turbo diesel to be useful at all, let alone if you try to tune it so it doesn't produce any soot.
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Danl 13 March 2006 19:31:56 [ permanent link ]
	Hi all, I was wondering if anyone here has has used propane injection as a milage booster. I have little knowledge about propane injection, other than ads and articles that proclaim tremendous milage gains. I don't believe the milage claims but think there may be enough of an increase to warrant a more detailed examination of propane injection. No, I do not have a diesel at this time, but it never hurts to research options. Please no "It doesn't work" comments unless there has been first hand use so you can back it up details of your experience. Thanks for taking the time to read this and any info that may come from it. I've learned that I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy it! danl4x@charter.net Remove the x for e-mail reply www.outdoorfrontiers.com www.SecretWeaponLures.com A proud charter member of "PETAF", People for Eating Tasty Animals and Fish!!!
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Danl 13 March 2006 19:32:40 [ permanent link ]
	Hi all, I was wondering if anyone here has has used propane injection as a milage booster. I have little knowledge about propane injection, other than ads and articles that proclaim tremendous milage gains. I don't believe the milage claims but think there may be enough of an increase to warrant a more detailed examination of propane injection. No, I do not have a diesel at this time, but it never hurts to research options. Please no "It doesn't work" comments unless there has been first hand use so you can back it up details of your experience. Thanks for taking the time to read this and any info that may come from it. I've learned that I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy it! danl4x@charter.net Remove the x for e-mail reply www.outdoorfrontiers.com www.SecretWeaponLures.com A proud charter member of "PETAF", People for Eating Tasty Animals and Fish!!!
		Add comment


Danl 13 March 2006 19:33:04 [ permanent link ]
	Hi all, I was wondering if anyone here has has used propane injection as a milage booster. I have little knowledge about propane injection, other than ads and articles that proclaim tremendous milage gains. I don't believe the milage claims but think there may be enough of an increase to warrant a more detailed examination of propane injection. No, I do not have a diesel at this time, but it never hurts to research options. Please no "It doesn't work" comments unless there has been first hand use so you can back it up details of your experience. Thanks for taking the time to read this and any info that may come from it. I've learned that I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy it! danl4x@charter.net Remove the x for e-mail reply www.outdoorfrontiers.com www.SecretWeaponLures.com A proud charter member of "PETAF", People for Eating Tasty Animals and Fish!!!
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Wc 12 May 2006 03:23:20 [ permanent link ]
	Their are a couple of Dodge forums that may better answer your question. I have researched this and have interviewed several that have done it. http://www.dieselram.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/ These are two FREE forums, for the Dodge diesels.. I know you don't want second hand info, but here goes.. The idea is that propane will ignight at a point earlier in the compression stroke than the diesel. It creates a flame front that will ignite the diesel. This all advances the timming and in theory makes better use of the diesel by combusting ALL of it. Naturally if you are over fueling, this won't happen. How this affects varible timed systems, I'm unsure. There is an issue over using it below 45 F, due to freezing of lines/etc. For drag racing it and nitro, are proven performers.... Almost everyone suggests, not doing it. ?????? I went with water/meth injection and can not see any difference "Dan, danl, danny boy, Redbeard, actually Greybeard now" <danl4x@charter.net> wrote in message news:9k7b129krtqdpj296iajc7e1u0i0ai218t@4ax.com...> Hi all,> I was wondering if anyone here has has used propane injection as a> milage booster. I have little knowledge about propane injection,> other than ads and articles that proclaim tremendous milage gains. I> don't believe the milage claims but think there may be enough of an> increase to warrant a more detailed examination of propane injection.> No, I do not have a diesel at this time, but it never hurts to> research options.> Please no "It doesn't work" comments unless there has been first hand> use so you can back it up details of your experience.> Thanks for taking the time to read this and any info that may come> from it.> I've learned that I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy it!> danl4x@charter.net> Remove the x for e-mail reply> www.outdoorfrontiers.com> www.SecretWeaponLures.com> A proud charter member of "PETAF", People for Eating Tasty Animals and Fish!!!>
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CarGuru > Technology > Diesel question 12 May 2006 03:23:20

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