tires w/ inner liners

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CarGuru > Nascar > tires w/ inner liners 16 April 2005 01:30:06

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tires w/ inner liners
Ed 12 April 2005 06:41:01
	Anyone got an idea why these aren't run on all tracks? With an increasing emphasis on safety, you'd think the cars would have them on at all times.
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Somebody 12 April 2005 06:10:12 [ permanent link ]
	"Ed" <bumbleroot@cox.net> wrote in message news:nGF6e.7405$d43.3218@lakeread03...> Anyone got an idea why these aren't run on all tracks?> With an increasing emphasis on safety, you'd think the cars would have> them on at all times. Often wondered that myself. Cost, I imagine. But surely the cost of a shredded fender and a damaged suspension is more than that of lined tires. -Russ.
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Ed 12 April 2005 08:00:56 [ permanent link ]
	"Ed" <bumbleroot@cox.net> wrote in message> news:nGF6e.7405$d43.3218@lakeread03...> Anyone got an idea why these aren't run on all tracks?>> With an increasing emphasis on safety, you'd think the cars would have>>them on at all times. Somebody wrote:> Often wondered that myself. Cost, I imagine.> But surely the cost of a shredded fender and a damaged suspension is more> than that of lined tires.> -Russ. I would think that saving the occasional totaled out car would justify it too.
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Steve Scott 12 April 2005 08:51:06 [ permanent link ]
	I suspect they want to keep rotating weight at a minimum. On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 20:41:01 CST, Ed <bumbleroot@cox.net> wrote: Anyone got an idea why these aren't run on all tracks?> With an increasing emphasis on safety, you'd think the cars would have >them on at all times. -- Self, self, self, self, self!' -- The Cat
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David T. 12 April 2005 18:55:30 [ permanent link ]
	Anyone got an idea why these aren't run on all tracks?>> If you saw the race on tv, you saw how low the pressures were even after running some laps. There would be no way to run an inner liner at 5 lbs of pressure.
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WildWeasel 12 April 2005 20:30:05 [ permanent link ]
	"Jim" wrote ...> Even on the lower divisions we often> spent hours looking for the tires that we wanted for our car checking the> size, construction, softness, etc. etc. You mean other divisions give teams a tire CHOICE?!? <gasp>
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Jim 12 April 2005 20:44:42 [ permanent link ]
	Well cost is a factor but you also have the weight factor in there. Much harder to get it rotating for that quick acceleration needed on the shorter tracks than on Daytona or Taladega. There is also the fatigue factor for the crew, tossing around those heavier tires as often on the short tracks would kill you! <G> Then there is the air pressure factor to consider, inner liners don.t work well at very low pressures and the heat dissipation of the inner liner tires is very poor so you would probably see even more failures as well. It is amazing just how much the tires can mean in the performance of the car on different tracks under different conditions and that really dictates the way they are constructed. Even on the lower divisions we often spent hours looking for the tires that we wanted for our car checking the size, construction, softness, etc. etc. Jim "Ed" <bumbleroot@cox.net> wrote in message news:nGF6e.7405$d43.3218@lakeread03...> Anyone got an idea why these aren't run on all tracks?> With an increasing emphasis on safety, you'd think the cars would have> them on at all times.>
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David T. 12 April 2005 22:25:59 [ permanent link ]
	You mean other divisions give teams a tire CHOICE?!? <gasp> no, what he means is that not every tire comes out exact. You can measure and durometer the softness on 4 tires and get 4 different sizes and softness readings. The trick is to match them up for proper stagger, spring rate, and diameter. I don't know too many series at the smaller level that offers choice. It drives up costs too much. Look at what the F1 series did this year. 1 set of tires all day.
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Ed 12 April 2005 22:50:02 [ permanent link ]
	OK, there's things here I hadn't even got close to thinking about. Jim wrote:> Well cost is a factor but you also have the weight factor in there. Much> harder to get it rotating for that quick acceleration needed on the shorter> tracks than on Daytona or Taladega. There is also the fatigue factor for the> crew, tossing around those heavier tires as often on the short tracks would> kill you! <G> Then there is the air pressure factor to consider, inner> liners don.t work well at very low pressures and the heat dissipation of the> inner liner tires is very poor so you would probably see even more failures> as well. It is amazing just how much the tires can mean in the performance> of the car on different tracks under different conditions and that really> dictates the way they are constructed. Even on the lower divisions we often> spent hours looking for the tires that we wanted for our car checking the> size, construction, softness, etc. etc.> Jim "Ed" <bumbleroot@cox.net> wrote in message>>Anyone got an idea why these aren't run on all tracks?>> With an increasing emphasis on safety, you'd think the cars would have>>them on at all times.
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Crusader 13 April 2005 02:27:00 [ permanent link ]
	"Jim" <jimbragg@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:g%R6e.52458$vL3.45647@bignews4.bellsouth.net...> Well cost is a factor but you also have the weight factor in there. Much> harder to get it rotating for that quick acceleration needed on the shorter> tracks than on Daytona or Taladega. There is also the fatigue factor for the> crew, tossing around those heavier tires as often on the short tracks would> kill you! <G> Then there is the air pressure factor to consider, inner> liners don.t work well at very low pressures and the heat dissipation of the> inner liner tires is very poor so you would probably see even more failures> as well. It is amazing just how much the tires can mean in the performance> of the car on different tracks under different conditions and that really> dictates the way they are constructed. Even on the lower divisions we often> spent hours looking for the tires that we wanted for our car checking the> size, construction, softness, etc. etc.> Jim> Good stuff Jim. Wonder why they ran inner liners on the right sides at Bristol? Wonder why Larry Mac just makes the statement we don't run em at shortrax and won't inform even us Oldbies WHY this is so? Are 'spring rates' still on the tires? Weren't teams measuring machines outlawed? Cru-who sez bring back competition like HOOSIER Tars, 5 miles south of here! "Ed" <bumbleroot@cox.net> wrote in message> news:nGF6e.7405$d43.3218@lakeread03...> > Anyone got an idea why these aren't run on all tracks?> > With an increasing emphasis on safety, you'd think the cars would have> > them on at all times.> >
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Jim 13 April 2005 03:14:36 [ permanent link ]
	Man Cru, there are a ton of things that these guys look at that even those of us that race or have raced at lower levels never though of or considered. Seems that the tires are actually nothing more than an extension of the suspension or the car and they even judge them for the engine and RPMs. I was just looking for the ones that I knew fit the tire stagger and softness I wanted. Jim "Crusader" <cru32@comcast.net> wrote in message news:3c2sogF6gn7f4U1@individual.net...> "Jim" <jimbragg@bellsouth.net> wrote in message> news:g%R6e.52458$vL3.45647@bignews4.bellsouth.net...> > Well cost is a factor but you also have the weight factor in there. Much> > harder to get it rotating for that quick acceleration needed on the shorter> > tracks than on Daytona or Taladega. There is also the fatigue factor for crew, tossing around those heavier tires as often on the short tracks would> > kill you! <G> Then there is the air pressure factor to consider, inner> > liners don.t work well at very low pressures and the heat dissipation of inner liner tires is very poor so you would probably see even more failures> > as well. It is amazing just how much the tires can mean in the performance> > of the car on different tracks under different conditions and that really> > dictates the way they are constructed. Even on the lower divisions we often> > spent hours looking for the tires that we wanted for our car checking size, construction, softness, etc. etc.> > Jim> > Good stuff Jim.> Wonder why they ran inner liners on the right sides at Bristol?> Wonder why Larry Mac just makes the statement we don't run em at shortrax> and won't inform even us Oldbies WHY this is so?> Are 'spring rates' still on the tires?> Weren't teams measuring machines outlawed?> Cru-who sez bring back competition like HOOSIER Tars, 5 miles south of here!> "Ed" <bumbleroot@cox.net> wrote in message> > news:nGF6e.7405$d43.3218@lakeread03...> > > Anyone got an idea why these aren't run on all tracks?> > > With an increasing emphasis on safety, you'd think the cars would have> > > them on at all times.> > >
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Chuck Steak 13 April 2005 04:48:56 [ permanent link ]
	In article <qHX6e.59225$vK6.49924@bignews3.bellsouth.net>, "Jim" <jimbragg@bellsouth.net> wrote: Man Cru, there are a ton of things that these guys look at that even those>of us that race or have raced at lower levels never though of or considered.>Seems that the tires are actually nothing more than an extension of the>suspension or the car Actually they are a fine tuning tool with regard to their importance "suspension" wise.. Their primary purpose is, and always has been 'grip'. Making an air adjustment will NEVER make a bad car good. It's very very small changes you see from 1/2# air.. Dan ---------------------------------------------- I got a new toolbox for my wife. Best trade I ever made.
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John McCoy 13 April 2005 06:29:52 [ permanent link ]
	Chuck_Steak@nospam.com (Chuck Steak) wrote in news:auWdncXLn5HHw8HfRVn-tQ@rcn.net: In article <qHX6e.59225$vK6.49924@bignews3.bellsouth.net>,> "Jim" <jimbragg@bellsouth.net> wrote:> Man Cru, there are a ton of things that these guys look at that even>>those of us that race or have raced at lower levels never though of or>>considered. Seems that the tires are actually nothing more than an>>extension of the suspension or the car > Actually they are a fine tuning tool with regard to their> importance "suspension" wise..> Their primary purpose is, and always has been 'grip'.> Making an air adjustment will NEVER make a bad car good.> It's very very small changes you see from 1/2# air.. Actually, with the suspensions they run at some tracks now-a-days, the tires are a bit more than a fine tuning adjustment. At the flatter tracks where they run extremely soft front springs and shocks that pretty much lock solid, the tire is most of the "spring" in the suspension. When they talk about putting a couple of pounds in or out, they're changing the spring rate of the entire suspension by 10% or more. Granted, a car that's not setup properly in terms of suspension geometry won't be fixed by playing with tire pressure (or spring rates or shocks or aero, for that matter). Back to the original question, one more reason the teams don't run inner liners at the short tracks is it's easy to tear them if the tire slips on the rim, which will cause the tire to equalize and create a bad vibration. Hard accelleration out of a slow corner, like Martinsville or Loudon, can easily cause the tire to slip on the rim, specially when pressures are low. John
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Chuck Steak 13 April 2005 19:07:53 [ permanent link ]
	In article <Xns9636D9336A7B5pogosupernews@216.168.3.30>, John McCoy <igopogo@ix.netcom.com> wrote: Chuck_Steak@nospam.com (Chuck Steak) wrote in Actually they are a fine tuning tool with regard to their>> importance "suspension" wise..>> Their primary purpose is, and always has been 'grip'.>> Making an air adjustment will NEVER make a bad car good.>> It's very very small changes you see from 1/2# air.. Actually, with the suspensions they run at some tracks now-a-days,>the tires are a bit more than a fine tuning adjustment. At the>flatter tracks where they run extremely soft front springs and>shocks that pretty much lock solid, the tire is most of the "spring">in the suspension. When they talk about putting a couple of>pounds in or out, they're changing the spring rate of the entire>suspension by 10% or more. John, you know I respect the hell out of your opinions, but you'll have to show me that on paper or on scales. I did notice that you said a couple of pounds, and obviously that will have more of an effect than 1/2, rarely do they do 2#, but there is no way a tire adjustment that small (1/2#) will make 10% on the effective total spring rate. Ain't happnin'..... Dan ---------------------------------------------- I got a new toolbox for my wife. Best trade I ever made.
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Alex Holden 14 April 2005 00:48:24 [ permanent link ]
	On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:55:30 CST, in article <9nQ6e.59091$vK6.30704@bignews3.bellsouth.net>, "David T." <david@nospam.com> wrote in rec.autos.sport.nascar.moderated: Anyone got an idea why these aren't run on all tracks?>>> If you saw the race on tv, you saw how low the pressures were even after >running some laps. There would be no way to run an inner liner at 5 lbs of >pressure. Well that in itself is ridiculous. Nascar should implement a rule whereby GoodYear set a minimum tire pressure for a racetrack, and if a team tries to run a pressure below that limit (plus a fudge factor) then they get brought back into the pits. Okay, tires get hot and the pressure builds up, but cut tires are a safety issue. Imagine at Dover on a restart, someone near the front of the pack cuts a tire and takes out half the field, like the wreck at Bristol 2 weeks ago. I don't think SAFER barriers are in yet because of the boilerplate walls at Dover, so you'd have a big, big wreck, on boilerplate steel walls, just because of some teams setting up too much mechanical grip. Cheers, -- Alex Holden I don't speak for anybody but myself.
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Alex Holden 14 April 2005 00:58:42 [ permanent link ]
	On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:25:59 CST, in article <8uT6e.69545$wo1.44683@bignews6.bellsouth.net>, "David T." <david@nospam.com> wrote in rec.autos.sport.nascar.moderated: Look at what the F1 series did this year. 1 set of tires all day. F1 is a bore-fest, and they've lost my support. The tire thing is just one of many reasons why F1 is no longer the world's premier auto racing series. I really would like to see Nascar race at places like Monza, Italy and Silverstone, UK. It won't happen, but these road courses have a historical significance, and the cars are slow enough (and safe enough) to have the real tracks in, not these chicane-riddled travesties that would the course designers who designed them in the 1920's turning in their graves. If you've got an X-Box, try the Nurburgring Nordschieffe on PGR2, if you haven't got one, I believe the US Pits have put out a Nordschieffe 1970 track for NR2003. As things stand, I'll more than settle for 500 laps of excitement at Bristol or Martinsville, but I think that 400 laps of Charlotte in May is a little bit much. Cheers, -- Alex Holden I don't speak for anybody but myself.
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Martin X. Moleski 14 April 2005 01:31:54 [ permanent link ]
	On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:58:42 CST, Alex Holden <newspost@alex-holden.co.uk> wrote: F1 is a bore-fest, and they've lost my support. The tire thing is just>one of many reasons why F1 is no longer the world's premier auto racing>series. I don't watch F1 much. Half a race a year? But I don't think NASCAR has knocked them off their perch at the top. If not F1, then who is #1? Marty
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Crusader 14 April 2005 02:40:02 [ permanent link ]
	"John McCoy" <igopogo@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:Xns9636D9336A7B5pogosupernews@216.168.3.30...> Chuck_Steak@nospam.com (Chuck Steak) wrote in> news:auWdncXLn5HHw8HfRVn-tQ@rcn.net:> > In article <qHX6e.59225$vK6.49924@bignews3.bellsouth.net>,> > "Jim" <jimbragg@bellsouth.net> wrote:> >>Man Cru, there are a ton of things that these guys look at that even> Back to the original question, one more reason the teams don't> run inner liners at the short tracks is it's easy to tear them> if the tire slips on the rim, which will cause the tire to> equalize and create a bad vibration. Hard accelleration out> of a slow corner, like Martinsville or Loudon, can easily cause> the tire to slip on the rim, specially when pressures are low.> John> I was surprized that the TV Talking Heads reported only one incident of the tire bead separating from the wheel, U? Ustabe THE tire problem at 'hot brakes' Mvl. CRU
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Crusader 14 April 2005 03:40:23 [ permanent link ]
	"Alex Holden" <newspost@alex-holden.co.uk> wrote in message news:9jtq51l4ig6qlvnub4vkmj421u2n02b5td@4ax.com...> On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:55:30 CST, in article> <9nQ6e.59091$vK6.30704@bignews3.bellsouth.net>, "David T."> <david@nospam.com> wrote in rec.autos.sport.nascar.moderated:> >>>Anyone got an idea why these aren't run on all tracks?> > If you saw the race on tv, you saw how low the pressures were even after> >running some laps. There would be no way to run an inner liner at 5 lbs of pressure.> Well that in itself is ridiculous. Nascar should implement a rule> whereby GoodYear set a minimum tire pressure for a racetrack, and if a> team tries to run a pressure below that limit (plus a fudge factor) then> they get brought back into the pits.> Okay, tires get hot and the pressure builds up, but cut tires are a> safety issue. Imagine at Dover on a restart, someone near the front of> the pack cuts a tire and takes out half the field, like the wreck at> Bristol 2 weeks ago. I don't think SAFER barriers are in yet because of> the boilerplate walls at Dover, so you'd have a big, big wreck, on> boilerplate steel walls, just because of some teams setting up too much> mechanical grip.> Cheers,> -- > Alex Holden> I don't speak for anybody but myself.> Alex, Alex, Alex. That's all we need, one more cookie-cutter 'fairness' rule! Good question tho if Dover has replaced their boilerplate walls. Does anyone know how many laps / miles Cup will run at Mother's Day Eve at Darlington? 293 for 400mi or 367 for 500mi like the Southern 500? CRU
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John McCoy 14 April 2005 04:30:55 [ permanent link ]
	Chuck_Steak@nospam.com (Chuck Steak) wrote in news:5aSdnQrlKOAausDfRVn- 2w@rcn.net: In article <Xns9636D9336A7B5pogosupernews@216.168.3.30>,> John McCoy <igopogo@ix.netcom.com> wrote:> Chuck_Steak@nospam.com (Chuck Steak) wrote in> Actually they are a fine tuning tool with regard to their>>> importance "suspension" wise..>>> Their primary purpose is, and always has been 'grip'.>>> Making an air adjustment will NEVER make a bad car good.>>> It's very very small changes you see from 1/2# air..> Actually, with the suspensions they run at some tracks now-a-days,>>the tires are a bit more than a fine tuning adjustment. At the>>flatter tracks where they run extremely soft front springs and>>shocks that pretty much lock solid, the tire is most of the "spring">>in the suspension. When they talk about putting a couple of>>pounds in or out, they're changing the spring rate of the entire>>suspension by 10% or more.> John, you know I respect the hell out of your opinions,> but you'll have to show me that on paper or on scales.> I did notice that you said a couple of pounds, and obviously> that will have more of an effect than 1/2, rarely do they do 2#,> but there is no way a tire adjustment that small (1/2#)> will make 10% on the effective total spring rate.> Ain't happnin'..... What I was trying to convey is that a 1/2lb isn't just an infintesimal tweak, it's a real meaningful change. A 2lb change is ~10% of the tire's spring rate, so a 1/2lb is going to be 2.5%. When the car's coming off the corner and the shock is holding the coil spring compressed, that spring rate in the tire (which isn't affected by the shock, of course) is a big part of the suspension equation. So maybe "10% of the entire...spring rate" is a bit of an overstatement, but at some points in the lap it's pretty close. John
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John McCoy 14 April 2005 04:36:06 [ permanent link ]
	"Crusader" <cru32@comcast.net> wrote in news:3c5l1tF6mcj9fU1@individual.net: I was surprized that the TV Talking Heads reported only> one incident of the tire bead separating from the wheel, U?> Ustabe THE tire problem at 'hot brakes' Mvl. Melting the bead off the tire due to brake heat is a different problem. Not sure why it would be less of a problem this time round, unless it's just the weather was cooler & so the brake cooling ducts worked better. Having the tire slip on the rim (the rim rotates & the tire doesn't) isn't quite as big a disaster. Dirt cars run beadlocks (or run drywall screws thru the rim into the bead) to prevent it, because they run even lower pressures than the Cup guys. John
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Steve Scott 14 April 2005 04:40:09 [ permanent link ]
	Well, they're calling it the Dodge Charger 500 so I'll go out on a limb and say 367. On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 17:40:23 CST, "Crusader" <cru32@comcast.net> wrote: Does anyone know how many laps / miles Cup will run at Mother's Day Eve>at Darlington? 293 for 400mi or 367 for 500mi like the Southern 500? -- The only time Bob Saget is funny is wh...wait! He isn't funny at all!
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John McCoy 14 April 2005 04:43:16 [ permanent link ]
	Alex Holden <newspost@alex-holden.co.uk> wrote in news:9jtq51l4ig6qlvnub4vkmj421u2n02b5td@4ax.com: Well that in itself is ridiculous. Nascar should implement a rule> whereby GoodYear set a minimum tire pressure for a racetrack, and if a> team tries to run a pressure below that limit (plus a fudge factor)> then they get brought back into the pits.> Okay, tires get hot and the pressure builds up, but cut tires are a> safety issue. You make a very good point. What NASCAR should do it allow bleeder valves, which dirt cars use. You set the pressure you want with the bleeder, and if the tire gets hot & the pressure starts to increase, then it bleeds off air to maintain the desired pressure. Of course, if the tire cools, then the pressure goes below the intended point. But that's no worse than starting with absurdly low pressures, and at least everytime they come out of the pits with new tires they'll be at the proper pressure. John
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Steve Scott 14 April 2005 05:33:20 [ permanent link ]
	There was at least two instances of the cap taking off during Martinsville too. On 13 Apr 2005 22:40:02 GMT, "Crusader" <cru32@comcast.net> wrote: "John McCoy" <igopogo@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message>news:Xns9636D9336A7B5pogosupernews@216.168.3.30...>> Chuck_Steak@nospam.com (Chuck Steak) wrote in>> news:auWdncXLn5HHw8HfRVn-tQ@rcn.net:>> > In article <qHX6e.59225$vK6.49924@bignews3.bellsouth.net>,>> > "Jim" <jimbragg@bellsouth.net> wrote:>> >>Man Cru, there are a ton of things that these guys look at that even>> Back to the original question, one more reason the teams don't>> run inner liners at the short tracks is it's easy to tear them>> if the tire slips on the rim, which will cause the tire to>> equalize and create a bad vibration. Hard accelleration out>> of a slow corner, like Martinsville or Loudon, can easily cause>> the tire to slip on the rim, specially when pressures are low.>> John>> I was surprized that the TV Talking Heads reported only>one incident of the tire bead separating from the wheel, U?>Ustabe THE tire problem at 'hot brakes' Mvl.>CRU> -- The only time Bob Saget is funny is wh...wait! He isn't funny at all!
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Steve Scott 14 April 2005 05:35:31 [ permanent link ]
	These are a VERY high maintenance item from what I understand prone to leaking. And most dirt races are 30-50 laps. On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:43:16 CST, John McCoy <igopogo@ix.netcom.com> wrote: You make a very good point. What NASCAR should do it allow bleeder>valves, which dirt cars use. You set the pressure you want with the>bleeder, and if the tire gets hot & the pressure starts to increase,>then it bleeds off air to maintain the desired pressure. -- I had no shoes and wept. Then I met a man who had no feet. So I said, 'Hey, man, got any shoes you're not using?'
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Generic 14 April 2005 06:03:54 [ permanent link ]
	"Martin X. Moleski, SJ" <moleski@canisius.edu> wrote in message news:5c0r515acneu34ag64ttumgo778bt7pb5c@4ax.com...> On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:58:42 CST, Alex Holden <newspost@alex-holden.co.uk>> wrote:> F1 is a bore-fest, and they've lost my support. The tire thing is just> >one of many reasons why F1 is no longer the world's premier auto racing> >series.> I don't watch F1 much. Half a race a year?> But I don't think NASCAR has knocked them off their perch at> the top.> If not F1, then who is #1?> Marty In terms of budget no one comes close to F1. Ferrari has something like a $400,000,000 budget with 1,000 staff members at each race. As with other internationally popular sports (e.g. soccer) there's more tolerance for a lack of excitement. -John
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Mike Marlow 14 April 2005 18:14:34 [ permanent link ]
	"Alex Holden" <newspost@alex-holden.co.uk> wrote in message news:9jtq51l4ig6qlvnub4vkmj421u2n02b5td@4ax.com...> On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:55:30 CST, in article> <9nQ6e.59091$vK6.30704@bignews3.bellsouth.net>, "David T."> <david@nospam.com> wrote in rec.autos.sport.nascar.moderated:> Anyone got an idea why these aren't run on all tracks?> >>> If you saw the race on tv, you saw how low the pressures were even after> >running some laps. There would be no way to run an inner liner at 5 lbs pressure.> Well that in itself is ridiculous. Nascar should implement a rule> whereby GoodYear set a minimum tire pressure for a racetrack, and if a> team tries to run a pressure below that limit (plus a fudge factor) then> they get brought back into the pits. Oh great - more rules and third grade time out disciplines. How does that do anything for the sport? Okay, tires get hot and the pressure builds up, but cut tires are a> safety issue. Imagine at Dover on a restart, someone near the front of> the pack cuts a tire and takes out half the field, like the wreck at> Bristol 2 weeks ago. I don't think SAFER barriers are in yet because of> the boilerplate walls at Dover, so you'd have a big, big wreck, on> boilerplate steel walls, just because of some teams setting up too much> mechanical grip.> Not really much of a safety issue under the conditions you specify here. A cost issue, for sure but that's a gamble the is up to the teams to determine if they want to take. -- -Mike- mmarlow@alltel.net
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Michael McGaha 14 April 2005 18:25:53 [ permanent link ]
	"Generic" <generic@scientist.com> wrote in message news:425dc162$0$6410$a32e20b9@news.nntpservers.com...> "Martin X. Moleski, SJ" <moleski@canisius.edu> wrote in message>> If not F1, then who is #1?>> Marty> In terms of budget no one comes close to F1. Ferrari has something like a> $400,000,000 budget with 1,000 staff members at each race. As with other> internationally popular sports (e.g. soccer) there's more tolerance for a> lack of excitement.> -John> Ok... So the series with the largest budget is #1? does that mean the NASCAR race team with the largest budget should be the champion? Michael
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Martin X. Moleski 14 April 2005 21:26:21 [ permanent link ]
	On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:25:53 CST, "Michael McGaha" <michael@ronindev.com> wrote: Ok... So the series with the largest budget is #1? does that mean the NASCAR >race team with the largest budget should be the champion? I think that's what NASCAR's rules are attempting to prevent. The last low-budget team to win the championship was Alan Kulwicki, may he rest in peace. Just having money doesn't produce a championship. Cf. Sabates and Penske. You've got to know how to spend the money wisely. Hmm. I'll bet DEI has got lots of money. Probably RCR, too. They're hurtin'. I do think you could draw up a chart of teams at the beginning of the season and pretty thoroughly eliminate all of the underfunded from contention before Daytona. They may be able to earn a living and add a lot of color and excitement to the sport, but they're not gonna beat the big dogs. Marty
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Alex Holden 14 April 2005 23:42:54 [ permanent link ]
	On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:31:54 CST, in article <5c0r515acneu34ag64ttumgo778bt7pb5c@4ax.com>, "Martin X. Moleski, SJ" <moleski@canisius.edu> wrote in rec.autos.sport.nascar.moderated: On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:58:42 CST, Alex Holden <newspost@alex-holden.co.uk>>wrote:> F1 is a bore-fest, and they've lost my support. The tire thing is just>>one of many reasons why F1 is no longer the world's premier auto racing>>series.> I don't watch F1 much. Half a race a year?> But I don't think NASCAR has knocked them off their perch at >the top.> If not F1, then who is #1? That's a very good question. There's really only F1 as a truly international auto racing series. The fact is that F1 has become extremely boring, and the product placement is seriously in your face. As John Generic said, Ferrari have a budget of 400 million dollars. That means that their sponsors are going to want some serious payback for their cash, and that includes how the pictures are broadcast. With NASCAR, on an oval, there's several fixed cameras with the sole job of tracking cars and wrecks, and perhaps one or two scenic shots from next to the walls. There's some degree of TV exposure time per leading team. With F1, the cars come second. Every turn has a myriad of sponsor's logos. Fosters, Bridgestone, Shell logos seem to be all over some of the turns or stretches. Your standard TV shot will be something along the lines of long view down a long straightaway, with a Fosters banner over the track, Fosters logos down the verges and one or two big Fosters posters at the end of the stretch. You're given plenty of time to appreciate the beauty of the blue poster before a car appears below one of these massive posters. The camera slowly zooms into the car, making sure that the posters stay prominent. The camera may then zero in on the car as it goes round a turn, showing off the "TV" decals, before the camera sits on a logo after a car has gone by. Repeat for 50 laps; and people complain about Mikey and his pitches? I don't begrudge sponsorship, it's what makes the cars go round, but when the budgets get into the stratosphere, the payback for the sponsors is intolerable. Perhaps Ferarri are a bad example though, as they've generally always been a mega-budget team, spending a serious load of money even when they didn't do very well. I remember many comments along the lines of "they have an unlimited budget but the cars are still poor, they still can't win races" when Gerhard Berger and Jean Alesi were the Ferarri drivers. So money isn't everything. Now back to why I think NASCAR is #1, or at least ranked higher than F1; you have 43 teams out there every week as opposed to 10 2-car teams. The racing is wide-open, and I personally believe that setting up a car to turn left and left again while maintaining a high average speed for a 22-gallon run, without burning up the right side tires is a pretty tough thing to do, and the concentration and stamina demands are extreme. F1 dosen't go above 200 miles in a race, Nascar does 600 miles in a single race in May, and many others last for 4,500 miles, 36 races in a season. F1 has 18. You think 1.5 mile cookie-cutter tracks are bad? Look at the modern F1 courses - they may be road courses, but they all have the same characteristics. TV friendly and very few passing opportunities. Tracks that had real identity, like Silversone, England, where the track was considered "rudimentary" but was a supreme challenge because of it's high-speed layout are decimated. Monza, Italy had to put a chicane in before the Curve Grande. That double-chicane flowed very nicely, but it got removed a few years back with a tight single-chicane that bottlenecks the cars after a very long frontstretch. They had to tighten the Curva de Lesmos (the double right-handers at the top of the track) to slow cars down, and whilst the Curva Parabolica is still a 4th gear challenge, that's more or less what's left of Monza. The tiny principality of San Marino had another great course, Imola. Go off the frontstretch and just mash the gas through the Tambourello for the first third of the track, that was until another chicane was put in because Ayrton Senna had a suspension fail on him at 200mph. The Germans had (and still have most of) the Nordschieffe, part of the Nurburgring complex. The Nordschieffe is 14.2 miles long and a supreme test of skill. After Nikki Lauda (who holds the F1 lap record of 6:58) crashed and burned there, F1 went to Hockenheim. That track had 3 very long stretches in a forest, was supremely fast, and the ostkurve before it got slowed down (literal translation is East Curve) was one of the greatest corners in F1. Now the Ostkurve is no more, the track has been ruined, and I can't watch the German GP without thinking of what they've done to the place. If the cars can't stay on the good old tracks, the cars are going too fast, and they should be slowed down. They should not change the tracks. Can you imagine in the 80's when Bill Elliot put down that fast lap at Daytona, the France family saying "The cars are too fast for superspeedways, let's not go to Daytona or Talladega, but go to Kansas and Joliet twice." Or "The track at Talladega is too long, let's build a 1.5 mile one with 9 degrees of banking in it's place" I want to see the world's best drivers taking corners at 180mph, and the only place for that now is Nascar. If only there was a way of taking out the plates at Daytona and Talladega, and my joy would be complete. That's my view, YMMV. Cheers, -- Alex Holden I don't speak for anybody but myself.
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Crusader 14 April 2005 23:53:09 [ permanent link ]
	"Steve Scott" <sscott1@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message news:vher51hd75qou0lt1habdbnt7ctlkk30o7@4ax.com...> Well, they're calling it the Dodge Charger 500 so I'll go out on a> limb and say 367. > On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 17:40:23 CST, "Crusader" <cru32@comcast.net> wrote:> >Does anyone know how many laps / miles Cup will run at Mother's Day Eve> >at Darlington? 293 for 400mi or 367 for 500mi like the Southern 500?> -- > The only time Bob Saget is funny is> wh...wait! He isn't funny at all!> Thanx SS, guess u can see I was too lazy to look it up, now i don't have to ;) Hope it's not a 500K race like Phoenix 400 Kilometres?. CRU
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Martin X. Moleski 15 April 2005 02:02:48 [ permanent link ]
	On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 13:42:54 CST, Alex Holden <newspost@alex-holden.co.uk> wrote: ... There's really only F1 as a truly>international auto racing series. OK. I thought that was the case. ... Now back to why I think NASCAR is #1, or at least ranked higher than F1; A masterful exposition. Much appreciated. I've never followed F1 at all, but I look up to it from a distance. It's interesting to see why you now enjoy NASCAR more than F1. ... If the cars can't stay on the good old tracks, the cars are going too>fast, and they should be slowed down. They should not change the tracks. A reasonable view. I think the Car of Tomorrow is supposed to be bigger and boxier to help slow things down a bit. I don't know whether that will let them take the plates off. That's my view, YMMV. Thanks for sharing what you think. Marty
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Alex Holden 15 April 2005 05:07:54 [ permanent link ]
	On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:14:34 CST, in article <e071d$425e6c86$a22701e6$32063@ALLTEL.NET>, "Mike Marlow" <mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net> wrote in rec.autos.sport.nascar.moderated: Oh great - more rules and third grade time out disciplines. How does that>do anything for the sport? It's better than watching a dozen cars get taken out because of a cut tire. What happened at Bristol would be magnified twice over at Dover, and don't forget that at Dover the outside retaining wall is still boilerplate steel; only the inside walls are SAFER barriers. A higher tire pressure makes the tire more resistant to cuts. Not really much of a safety issue under the conditions you specify here. A>cost issue, for sure but that's a gamble the is up to the teams to determine>if they want to take. That's something that we'll have to agree to differ on. I respect your view that there shouldn't be a rule situation here, but after watching and listening to the commentaries during the Bristol and Martinsville races, and seeing a trend to lower pressures over the time I've been watching Nascar, I really do believe that the time has come that teams need to take notice, and responsibly set up their cars. If not, I'm sure that the France family will think of a way to do it for them. Cheers, -- Alex Holden I don't speak for anybody but myself.
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Generic 15 April 2005 05:08:03 [ permanent link ]
	"Michael McGaha" <michael@ronindev.com> wrote in message news:%au7e.1058$JJ2.227@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...> "Generic" <generic@scientist.com> wrote in message> news:425dc162$0$6410$a32e20b9@news.nntpservers.com...> > "Martin X. Moleski, SJ" <moleski@canisius.edu> wrote in message> >> If not F1, then who is #1?> >> Marty> > In terms of budget no one comes close to F1. Ferrari has something like $400,000,000 budget with 1,000 staff members at each race. As with other> > internationally popular sports (e.g. soccer) there's more tolerance for lack of excitement.> > Ok... So the series with the largest budget is #1? does that mean the NASCAR> race team with the largest budget should be the champion? You certainly do have to be on one of the bigger teams to consistently win in NASCAR. This year Ferrari is doing quite poorly--their '05 car isn't done yet. From what I understand (as a minor F1 fan) they follow the European tradition of central subsidy. They funding pie is split by points and wins. It's racing as done by a cross between big business and big government. -John
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Generic 15 April 2005 05:12:43 [ permanent link ]
	"Martin X. Moleski, SJ" <moleski@canisius.edu> wrote in message news:o9mt51ht1rjr2u6roogotbbdnf55nhe2mi@4ax.com...> On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 13:42:54 CST, Alex Holden <newspost@alex-holden.co.uk>> wrote:> > ... There's really only F1 as a truly> >international auto racing series.> OK. I thought that was the case. WRC (Rally) is international too. -John
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John McCoy 15 April 2005 05:30:02 [ permanent link ]
	"Generic" <generic@scientist.com> wrote in news:425dc162$0$6410$a32e20b9@news.nntpservers.com: In terms of budget no one comes close to F1. Ferrari has something> like a $400,000,000 budget with 1,000 staff members at each race. As> with other internationally popular sports (e.g. soccer) there's more> tolerance for a lack of excitement. And that, of course, is why pretty much everyone in NASCAR is afraid of Toyota. Their F1 budget isn't but a few dollars smaller than Ferrari's...think what that sort of money might do if they decide they really want to win in NASCAR. John
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Martin X. Moleski 15 April 2005 05:48:48 [ permanent link ]
	On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 19:12:43 CST, "Generic" <generic@scientist.com> wrote: WRC (Rally) is international too. One of the NASCAR drivers said last year that he loves to watch WRC and that he thinks they may have the best drivers in the world. I watch a few minutes here and there. Marty
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John McCoy 15 April 2005 06:12:41 [ permanent link ]
	Steve Scott <sscott1@twcny.rr.com> wrote in news:iker51lca94ph79vss3v1dlpks5t6kd98n@4ax.com: These are a VERY high maintenance item from what I understand prone to> leaking. And most dirt races are 30-50 laps. Almost everything on a dirt car is high maintenance I think, on asphalt, they'd be OK for a typical tire run. And the cup teams certainly have enough money to make them one-time- use items if they want to. John
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John McCoy 15 April 2005 06:14:37 [ permanent link ]
	"Martin X. Moleski, SJ" <moleski@canisius.edu> wrote in news:lfhr5115j8job0uh0otnju99hbje8eooti@4ax.com: From what you say, the only problem would be restarts> after a long caution. No worse than what we have> today? Exactly. What you'd gain is not having to start new tires on low pressures. Once you've heated them up, if you cool them down again you'd get the same pressure changes either way. John
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Generic 15 April 2005 06:15:39 [ permanent link ]
	"Martin X. Moleski, SJ" <moleski@canisius.edu> wrote in message news:9p3u5155edni8uo1tld9ubuqdjjdpinaps@4ax.com...> On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 19:12:43 CST, "Generic" <generic@scientist.com> wrote:> WRC (Rally) is international too.> One of the NASCAR drivers said last year that he loves to> watch WRC and that he thinks they may have the best> drivers in the world.> I watch a few minutes here and there. They are, without question, the best at handling changing grip and conditions. Many would do poorly in traffic, be it F1 or NASCAR style. Too bad it's about the worst live sport possible. -John
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Crusader 16 April 2005 01:10:01 [ permanent link ]
	"Alex Holden" <newspost@alex-holden.co.uk> wrote in message news:fl0u51laqamvau6o6lsie40enr9fpjij5k@4ax.com...> On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:14:34 CST, in article> <e071d$425e6c86$a22701e6$32063@ALLTEL.NET>, "Mike Marlow"> <mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net> wrote in rec.autos.sport.nascar.moderated:> >Oh great - more rules and third grade time out disciplines. How does that> >do anything for the sport?> need to take notice, and responsibly set up their cars.> If not, I'm sure that the France family will think of a way to do it for them.> Cheers,> -- > Alex Holden> I don't speak for anybody but myself.> No truer words were ever spoken, Alex. CRU-feelin the need to get to the heart of this or any other matter NA$CAR-France Family-ISC-RELATED. Blunt Brits Indeed! ;)
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Crusader 16 April 2005 01:30:06 [ permanent link ]
	Jim I hate to do this, but is it possible that u could post your responses as well as your racing experiences below what u r replying to? I really don't want to start a Top-posting vs Bottom-posting thread, BUT to be honest, i had no idea what CRU topic u were replying to. Thanx -- Crusader "Jim" <jimbragg@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:mtV7e.57768$UW6.7688@bignews5.bellsouth.net...> Heck yeah Cru! I've seen many a tire spinning inside the rim, especially> with low air pressure and occasional tire failure with it on restarts.> Unlike other series NASCAR doe not allow locking rims to hold the tires on.> As for the Hoosiers, I wish NASCAR would amend the rules to allow teams to> use the tire of their choice. The rules state that for another company to be> allowed to use their tires they have to bring enough tires for everyone> which means lots us unsold tires that are good for nothing after the race.> That is what stopped Hoosier from competing. Most short tracks seem to> prefer Hoosiers. Heck, I did! <G>> Jim> "Crusader" <cru32@comcast.net> wrote in message> news:3c5kpcF6hkidgU1@individual.net...> > "Jim" <jimbragg@bellsouth.net> wrote in message> > news:qHX6e.59225$vK6.49924@bignews3.bellsouth.net...> > > Man Cru, there are a ton of things that these guys look at that even> those> > > of us that race or have raced at lower levels never though of or> considered.> > > Seems that the tires are actually nothing more than an extension of the> > > suspension or the car and they even judge them for the engine and RPMs.> I> > > was just looking for the ones that I knew fit the tire stagger and> softness> > > I wanted.> > > Jim> > > "Crusader" <cru32@comcast.net> wrote in message> > > news:3c2sogF6gn7f4U1@individual.net...> > > > Good stuff Jim.> > > > Wonder why they ran inner liners on the right sides at Bristol?> > > > Wonder why Larry Mac just makes the statement we don't run em at> shortrax> > > > and won't inform even us Oldbies WHY this is so?> > > > Are 'spring rates' still on the tires?> > > > Weren't teams measuring machines outlawed?> > > > Cru-who sez bring back competition like HOOSIER Tars, 5 miles south of> here!> > > > No-Spin Zone here Jim & the rest of ya--> > Weren't my add-on questions fairly relevant?> > CRU-spinning wheels, hope not.> >
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Jim 16 April 2005 01:42:08 [ permanent link ]
	Got that right John! <LOL> That is one of the reasons I went to asphalt, it took less time to find and fix the problem and actually the repairs were a lot cheaper except for when you crashed. More damage to the asphalt cars. Also, on dirt I had too much fun to get serious and was forever laughing in the car. Not good for trying to win races <G> Jim "John McCoy" <igopogo@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:Xns9638D6422154Fpogosupernews@216.168.3.30...> Steve Scott <sscott1@twcny.rr.com> wrote in> news:iker51lca94ph79vss3v1dlpks5t6kd98n@4ax.com:> These are a VERY high maintenance item from what I understand prone to> > leaking. And most dirt races are 30-50 laps.> Almost everything on a dirt car is high maintenance > I think, on asphalt, they'd be OK for a typical tire run. And> the cup teams certainly have enough money to make them one-time-> use items if they want to.> John>
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CarGuru > Nascar > tires w/ inner liners 16 April 2005 01:30:06

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tires w/ inner liners

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