Need help in troubleshooting ignition problem

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Need help in troubleshooting ignition problem
Steve Smith 3 April 2005 07:29:00
	My 95 Grand Cherokee would not start today. It is not getting any ignition. The engine turns over fine but there is no spark from spark plug wires or from the coil. I've tested the coil with a ohmmeter and it checked out fine. I replaced the distributor cap and rotor button, but that didn't help. I fear it might be the Powertrain Control Module(PCM). My Haynes repair manual does not explain how to test this. Does anyone here know? Is there something else I should check? I have a 4.0L V6 motor. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. BTW- If it is the Powertrain Control Module, is it possible to purchase an after-market PCM that is better? I saw this on Ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7964551127&category=33597 but I don't know if it a PCM replacement or just an add on. Steve Smith
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L . W . Hughes III 3 April 2005 09:06:58 [ permanent link ]
	Hi Steve, Ninety nine and nine tens percent of the time it is the Crankshaft Position Sensor: http://www.off-road.com/jeep/cherokee/xjtech/engine/40ltr/tdcsensor.html Pictured: http://members.cox.net/wilsond/Fixes/diagnostics.html#CPSdetails God Bless America, Гџill O\|\|\|\|\|\|\|O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ Steve Smith wrote:> My 95 Grand Cherokee would not start today. It is not getting any ignition.> The engine turns over fine but there is no spark from spark plug wires or> from the coil. I've tested the coil with a ohmmeter and it checked out fine.> I replaced the distributor cap and rotor button, but that didn't help. I> fear it might be the Powertrain Control Module(PCM). My Haynes repair manual> does not explain how to test this. Does anyone here know? Is there something> else I should check? I have a 4.0L V6 motor.> Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.> BTW- If it is the Powertrain Control Module, is it possible to purchase an> after-market PCM that is better? I saw this on Ebay:> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7964551127&category=33597> but I don't know if it a PCM replacement or just an add on.> Steve Smith
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Drifter 3 April 2005 12:07:12 [ permanent link ]
	On Sat, 2 Apr 2005 22:29:00 -0500, "Steve Smith" <s.w.smithREMOVECAPS@ctliving.net> wrote: My 95 Grand Cherokee would not start today. It is not getting any ignition. >The engine turns over fine but there is no spark from spark plug wires or >from the coil. I've tested the coil with a ohmmeter and it checked out fine. >I replaced the distributor cap and rotor button, but that didn't help. I >fear it might be the Powertrain Control Module(PCM). My Haynes repair manual >does not explain how to test this. Does anyone here know? Is there something >else I should check? I have a 4.0L V6 motor.> Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.> BTW- If it is the Powertrain Control Module, is it possible to purchase an >after-market PCM that is better? I saw this on Ebay:>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7964551127&category=33597 >but I don't know if it a PCM replacement or just an add on.> Steve Smith First check the Crankcase Position Sensor. Many a jeep owner has cursed the %$*!! who designed that stupid thing! Next up I would replace the coil anyway. I've seen a perfectly good reading come from a coil that still won't spark. Rare, but I have seen it. Can't think of anything else...but then again it's 4:00am (just finished putting in a new stereo in the XJ). Drifter "I've been here, I've been there..."
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Mike Romain 3 April 2005 18:32:23 [ permanent link ]
	Bill, do V6's have that CPS? He says he has the V6. But other than a dead CPS, how is the body ground? If bad no spark. I test them by running a booster cable from the battery negative to the firewall. On the straight six, the ground is a wire mesh strap from the head to the firewall, don't know where it is on the V6 or V8. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's "L.W.(Гџill) Hughes III" wrote:> Hi Steve,> Ninety nine and nine tens percent of the time it is the Crankshaft> Position Sensor:> http://www.off-road.com/jeep/cherokee/xjtech/engine/40ltr/tdcsensor.html> Pictured:> http://members.cox.net/wilsond/Fixes/diagnostics.html#CPSdetails> God Bless America, Гџill O\|\|\|\|\|\|\|O> mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/> Steve Smith wrote:> > My 95 Grand Cherokee would not start today. It is not getting any ignition.> > The engine turns over fine but there is no spark from spark plug wires or> > from the coil. I've tested the coil with a ohmmeter and it checked out fine.> > I replaced the distributor cap and rotor button, but that didn't help. I> > fear it might be the Powertrain Control Module(PCM). My Haynes repair manual> > does not explain how to test this. Does anyone here know? Is there something> > else I should check? I have a 4.0L V6 motor.> > Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.> > BTW- If it is the Powertrain Control Module, is it possible to purchase an> > after-market PCM that is better? I saw this on Ebay:> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7964551127&category=33597> > but I don't know if it a PCM replacement or just an add on.> > Steve Smith
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L . W . Hughes III 3 April 2005 19:11:28 [ permanent link ]
	He's dyslexic, he meant I, but typed V. The '95 Grand Cherokee V8 is the old fifties Plymouth push rod, 5.2 liter. God Bless America, Гџill O\|\|\|\|\|\|\|O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ Mike Romain wrote:> Bill, do V6's have that CPS? He says he has the V6.> But other than a dead CPS, how is the body ground? If bad no spark. I> test them by running a booster cable from the battery negative to the> firewall. On the straight six, the ground is a wire mesh strap from the> head to the firewall, don't know where it is on the V6 or V8.> Mike> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
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Lee Ayrton 3 April 2005 21:05:35 [ permanent link ]
	Steve should follow the advice given at the end of Bill's first URL (below) -- find the 2-wire plug for the CPS driver's side near the firewall, just behind the valve cover. Carefully unplug (don't break the keeper off), securely replug. My `89 XJ would refuse to start about once a year, curiously, usually just after an oil change. Unplug, reconnect, start up and I'd be good to go another 15,000 miles or so before it happened again. Never did have to replace the part. L.W.(Гџill) Hughes III wrote:> Hi Steve,> Ninety nine and nine tens percent of the time it is the Crankshaft> Position Sensor:> http://www.off-road.com/jeep/cherokee/xjtech/engine/40ltr/tdcsensor.html> Pictured:> http://members.cox.net/wilsond/Fixes/diagnostics.html#CPSdetails > God Bless America, Гџill O\|\|\|\|\|\|\|O> mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/> Steve Smith wrote:> My 95 Grand Cherokee would not start today. It is not getting any ignition.>>The engine turns over fine but there is no spark from spark plug wires or>>from the coil. I've tested the coil with a ohmmeter and it checked out fine.>>I replaced the distributor cap and rotor button, but that didn't help. I>>fear it might be the Powertrain Control Module(PCM). My Haynes repair manual>>does not explain how to test this. Does anyone here know? Is there something>>else I should check? I have a 4.0L V6 motor.>> Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.>> BTW- If it is the Powertrain Control Module, is it possible to purchase an>>after-market PCM that is better? I saw this on Ebay:>>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7964551127&category=33597>>but I don't know if it a PCM replacement or just an add on.>> Steve Smith
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Mike Romain 3 April 2005 22:20:55 [ permanent link ]
	They get bad connections easy, some spray contact cleaner in them and dielectric grease on the seal helps. Just unplugging is still good, the pin gets scratched enough to make a new contact usually. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Lee Ayrton wrote:> Steve should follow the advice given at the end of Bill's first URL> (below) -- find the 2-wire plug for the CPS driver's side near the> firewall, just behind the valve cover. Carefully unplug (don't break> the keeper off), securely replug. My `89 XJ would refuse to start about> once a year, curiously, usually just after an oil change. Unplug,> reconnect, start up and I'd be good to go another 15,000 miles or so> before it happened again. Never did have to replace the part.> L.W.(Гџill) Hughes III wrote:> > Hi Steve,> > Ninety nine and nine tens percent of the time it is the Crankshaft> > Position Sensor:> > http://www.off-road.com/jeep/cherokee/xjtech/engine/40ltr/tdcsensor.html> > Pictured:> > http://members.cox.net/wilsond/Fixes/diagnostics.html#CPSdetails> > God Bless America, Гџill O\|\|\|\|\|\|\|O> > mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/> > Steve Smith wrote:> > My 95 Grand Cherokee would not start today. It is not getting any ignition.> >>The engine turns over fine but there is no spark from spark plug wires or> >>from the coil. I've tested the coil with a ohmmeter and it checked out fine.> >>I replaced the distributor cap and rotor button, but that didn't help. I> >>fear it might be the Powertrain Control Module(PCM). My Haynes repair manual> >>does not explain how to test this. Does anyone here know? Is there something> >>else I should check? I have a 4.0L V6 motor.> >> Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.> >> BTW- If it is the Powertrain Control Module, is it possible to purchase an> >>after-market PCM that is better? I saw this on Ebay:> >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7964551127&category=33597> >>but I don't know if it a PCM replacement or just an add on.> >> Steve Smith
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Lon 3 April 2005 22:21:38 [ permanent link ]
	Good catch Mike. I am reasonably sure that the V6 4.0 in the 95 ZJ still has a CPS. Unfortunately the sensor itself is constructed of pure "FailureToReadTheFineManualanium" and therefore quite expensive. It is also somewhat difficult to locate, since the first problem would be locating the other cylinder bank under the hood. Mike Romain proclaimed: Bill, do V6's have that CPS? He says he has the V6.> But other than a dead CPS, how is the body ground? If bad no spark. I> test them by running a booster cable from the battery negative to the> firewall. On the straight six, the ground is a wire mesh strap from the> head to the firewall, don't know where it is on the V6 or V8.> Mike> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's> "L.W.(Гџill) Hughes III" wrote:> Hi Steve,>> Ninety nine and nine tens percent of the time it is the Crankshaft>>Position Sensor:>>http://www.off-road.com/jeep/cherokee/xjtech/engine/40ltr/tdcsensor.html>>Pictured:>>http://members.cox.net/wilsond/Fixes/diagnostics.html#CPSdetails>> God Bless America, Гџill O\|\|\|\|\|\|\|O>>mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/>> Steve Smith wrote:>> My 95 Grand Cherokee would not start today. It is not getting any ignition.>>>The engine turns over fine but there is no spark from spark plug wires or>>>from the coil. I've tested the coil with a ohmmeter and it checked out fine.>>>I replaced the distributor cap and rotor button, but that didn't help. I>>>fear it might be the Powertrain Control Module(PCM). My Haynes repair manual>>>does not explain how to test this. Does anyone here know? Is there something>>>else I should check? I have a 4.0L V6 motor.>>> Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.>>> BTW- If it is the Powertrain Control Module, is it possible to purchase an>>>after-market PCM that is better? I saw this on Ebay:>>>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7964551127&category=33597>>>but I don't know if it a PCM replacement or just an add on.>>> Steve Smith
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L . W . Hughes III 4 April 2005 00:40:58 [ permanent link ]
	Merely unplugging it may bring it back to life, just like many times we are forced to do that via instructions for hand held computers, my phone machine, and my DirecTV satellite decoder. God Bless America, Гџill O\|\|\|\|\|\|\|O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ Mike Romain wrote:> They get bad connections easy, some spray contact cleaner in them and> dielectric grease on the seal helps. Just unplugging is still good, the> pin gets scratched enough to make a new contact usually.> Mike> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
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Steve Smith 4 April 2005 03:12:57 [ permanent link ]
	Thanks for the great help. It was the Crank Position Sensor. I purchased a replacement from AutoZone for $55. After installing it, the car cranked right up. The Crankshaft Position Sensor is not even mentioned in my Haynes Jeep repair manual. I would not have been able to fix this if it was not for the help in this group, especially L.W. ("Яill") Hughes III . I can't thank you enough. Steve Smith
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L . W . Hughes III 4 April 2005 03:27:47 [ permanent link ]
	Hi Steve, Thanks for telling us what your problem was. I merely referred you to the site: http://www.off-road.com/jeep/cherokee/xjtech/engine/40ltr/tdcsensor.html as I do 99% of the time. God Bless America, Гџill O\|\|\|\|\|\|\|O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ Steve Smith wrote:> Thanks for the great help. It was the Crank Position Sensor. I purchased a> replacement from AutoZone for $55. After installing it, the car cranked> right up. The Crankshaft Position Sensor is not even mentioned in my Haynes> Jeep repair manual. I would not have been able to fix this if it was not for> the help in this group, especially L.W. ("Гџill") Hughes III . I can't thank> you enough.> Steve Smith
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Steve Smith 4 April 2005 03:32:41 [ permanent link ]
	I forgot to mention, I was incorrect to type "V6" in my original post. It's a I6. I realized my error right after I posted, but I figured you guys would know what I meant to type. Steve Smith
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Dave Milne 4 April 2005 04:15:34 [ permanent link ]
	I'm still getting used to you Americans calling it an "Inline 6" instead of a "Straight 6" Dave Milne, Scotland '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ "Steve Smith" <s.w.smithREMOVECAPS@ctliving.net> wrote in message news:c2%3e.13753$%d7.8698@lakeread03...> I forgot to mention, I was incorrect to type "V6" in my original post. It's> a I6. I realized my error right after I posted, but I figured you guys would> know what I meant to type.> Steve Smith
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DougW 4 April 2005 04:41:23 [ permanent link ]
	Dave Milne did pass the time by typing:> I'm still getting used to you Americans calling it an "Inline 6" instead of> a "Straight 6" Well, the designation on the ZJs paperwork is L6, linear 6 I suppose. -- DougW
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Mike Romain 4 April 2005 06:26:03 [ permanent link ]
	The only issue is they now 'do' have a V6 for some of the Jeeps and Grands are their own animal.... Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Steve Smith wrote:> I forgot to mention, I was incorrect to type "V6" in my original post. It's> a I6. I realized my error right after I posted, but I figured you guys would> know what I meant to type.> Steve Smith
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Lee Ayrton 4 April 2005 18:35:12 [ permanent link ]
	Which leads me to wonder if the problem is not the CPS, as is so often assumed, but really a fault in the computer -- some endless loop triggered when inputs line up _just_so_ or something (in my mind I'm picturing the old MS-DOS loop of "Printer not found - Abort, Retry or Fail? Abort, Retry or Fail?"). After all, the CPS is just a dumb sensor, unplugging it shouldn't fix or reset anything in it. Which then makes me wonder how many CPS have been needlessly replaced and paid for either in cash or busted knuckles. L.W.(Bill) Hughes III wrote:> Merely unplugging it may bring it back to life, just like many times> we are forced to do that via instructions for hand held computers, my> phone machine, and my DirecTV satellite decoder. > God Bless America, Bill O\|\|\|\|\|\|\|O> mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/> Mike Romain wrote:> They get bad connections easy, some spray contact cleaner in them and>>dielectric grease on the seal helps. Just unplugging is still good, the>>pin gets scratched enough to make a new contact usually.>> Mike>>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00>>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
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L . W . Hughes III 4 April 2005 23:06:25 [ permanent link ]
	Keyboard not found, press any key to continue. There is something that goes wrong in a bad Crankshaft Position Sensor, that is only temporarily solved by unplugging it, until that trick won't work anymore. So, I believe none have been needlessly replaced. God Bless America, Гџill O\|\|\|\|\|\|\|O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ Lee Ayrton wrote:> Which leads me to wonder if the problem is not the CPS, as is so often> assumed, but really a fault in the computer -- some endless loop> triggered when inputs line up _just_so_ or something (in my mind I'm> picturing the old MS-DOS loop of "Printer not found - Abort, Retry or> Fail? Abort, Retry or Fail?"). After all, the CPS is just a dumb> sensor, unplugging it shouldn't fix or reset anything in it.> Which then makes me wonder how many CPS have been needlessly replaced> and paid for either in cash or busted knuckles.
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Mike Romain 4 April 2005 23:22:46 [ permanent link ]
	They are computer signal pins. The socket has a point that scribes the pin every time it is plugged in. The power level is so low, the slightest amount of corrosion kills the signal, so just unplugging them gives a brand new contact via that scribe pin that will last for a bit. Same for replacing them, one half just got new. The best is to clean them with a spray contact cleaner. WD40 will work in a pinch, but. Then sealing the plug skirt with dielectric grease also helps keep them clean. We were told our TPS was dead 4 or 5 years ago now and all it needed was the spray clean with a fresh clean every couple years or so. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Lee Ayrton wrote:> Which leads me to wonder if the problem is not the CPS, as is so often> assumed, but really a fault in the computer -- some endless loop> triggered when inputs line up _just_so_ or something (in my mind I'm> picturing the old MS-DOS loop of "Printer not found - Abort, Retry or> Fail? Abort, Retry or Fail?"). After all, the CPS is just a dumb> sensor, unplugging it shouldn't fix or reset anything in it.> Which then makes me wonder how many CPS have been needlessly replaced> and paid for either in cash or busted knuckles.> L.W.(Bill) Hughes III wrote:> > Merely unplugging it may bring it back to life, just like many times> > we are forced to do that via instructions for hand held computers, my> > phone machine, and my DirecTV satellite decoder.> > God Bless America, Bill O\|\|\|\|\|\|\|O> > mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/> > Mike Romain wrote:> > They get bad connections easy, some spray contact cleaner in them and> >>dielectric grease on the seal helps. Just unplugging is still good, the> >>pin gets scratched enough to make a new contact usually.> >> Mike> >>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00> >>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
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Mic Canic 6 April 2005 05:31:07 [ permanent link ]
	needs a crank sensor very common failure Steve Smith wrote: My 95 Grand Cherokee would not start today. It is not getting any ignition.> The engine turns over fine but there is no spark from spark plug wires or> from the coil. I've tested the coil with a ohmmeter and it checked out fine.> I replaced the distributor cap and rotor button, but that didn't help. I> fear it might be the Powertrain Control Module(PCM). My Haynes repair manual> does not explain how to test this. Does anyone here know? Is there something> else I should check? I have a 4.0L V6 motor.> Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.> BTW- If it is the Powertrain Control Module, is it possible to purchase an> after-market PCM that is better? I saw this on Ebay:> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7964551127&category=33597> but I don't know if it a PCM replacement or just an add on.> Steve Smith
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