In article <n1n6415e4ld5568b02­dss1lue7vccg1us2@4ax­.com>,> gRmEcMgOrVeEw@minds­pring.com (Gordon McGrew) wrote:>

On the other hand, you can't have hybrid gas/electric with MT.

It's >kind of a bummer because I like responsiveness of manuals but the >milage*power level is falling behind some automatics. Regenerative >braking, continuous gear ratios, ultra-lean burn, and cylinder bypassing >need to be coordinated with an AT. The decision was much more clear-cut >a few years ago when you chose between a peppy 5-speed manual or a >sluggish 3-speed automatic. Now cars like the Accord Hybrid make the >decision tough.>

If we get fuel cells in marketable condition there may not be multiple >gears anymore. You'll just have a knob to select how much regenerative >braking you want when you take your foot off the throttle. Crank up >regenerative braking and you'd have lightning fast response to throttle >changes.

There are lots of great statistics at the Government CAFE web site.> Lots of compiled data on cars going back to 1977 (and some even> older.) One interesting trend tracked is the percentage of> automobiles with automatic transmissions.>

In 1977, 84.1% of all new cars had AT. Under pressure of demands for> improved fuel economy and increasing consumer preference for import> cars, that number dropped to 75.0% in 1987. Then imports went> upscale, ATs became more sophisticated and fuel got cheap. By 2002,> 88.5% of new cars had only two pedals and the imminent demise of the> manual transmission was widely predicted.>

Then something funny happened. There were rumors of rebellion in the> ranks and increased reports of drivers demanding control of the gear> ratios. In 2003, the percentage of cars sold with automatics dropped> precipitously to 82.4%. The CAFE site is now reporting a further drop> in 2004 with the lowest percentage of AT's since 1991, 79.6%. That> means that the number of cars sold with manual transmissions increased> 77% in only two years and a clutch is now found in one of every five> new cars.>

In terms of sales, this trend actually surpasses the much touted> return of rear wheel drive and the movement is broad based. While> keeping in mind that the politics of fuel economy can skew the> definitions pretty badly, the trend is apparent in domestics, Asian> and European imports. All are selling manual transmissions at levels> that haven't been seen in a decade. Almost half of all European cars> are now shifters, the highest rate since 1988.>

Will this be a long lasting trend or a brief flash? It is still too> early to tell but it certainly shows that the old MT is going to be> harder to kill than it once appeared. The auto companies have now> learned that there is a solid base of buyers who prefer to shift for> themselves and the increased availability of this option is sure to> follow.>

http://www.nhtsa.do­t.gov/cars/rules/caf­e/NewPassengerCarFle­et.htm>

Well, now the trend is to have both manual and auto trannies on the same

which is called million different names such as autostick, tiptronic,> easytronic, multimod manual, activeselect or whatever...

On the other hand, you can't have hybrid gas/electric with MT.

of course, i didn't mean that these cars have 2 transmissions...jus­t one>with with the capabilities of both both manual and auto transmission...

shhhhhhh......don't­ tell Honda, who sells them by the boatload with> manual transmissions.....>­

There are lots of great statistics at the Government CAFE web site.> Lots of compiled data on cars going back to 1977 (and some even> older.) One interesting trend tracked is the percentage of> automobiles with automatic transmissions.>

In 1977, 84.1% of all new cars had AT. Under pressure of demands for> improved fuel economy and increasing consumer preference for import> cars, that number dropped to 75.0% in 1987. Then imports went> upscale, ATs became more sophisticated and fuel got cheap. By 2002,> 88.5% of new cars had only two pedals and the imminent demise of the> manual transmission was widely predicted.>

Then something funny happened. There were rumors of rebellion in the> ranks and increased reports of drivers demanding control of the gear> ratios. In 2003, the percentage of cars sold with automatics dropped> precipitously to 82.4%. The CAFE site is now reporting a further drop> in 2004 with the lowest percentage of AT's since 1991, 79.6%. That> means that the number of cars sold with manual transmissions increased> 77% in only two years and a clutch is now found in one of every five> new cars.>

In terms of sales, this trend actually surpasses the much touted> return of rear wheel drive and the movement is broad based. While> keeping in mind that the politics of fuel economy can skew the> definitions pretty badly, the trend is apparent in domestics, Asian> and European imports. All are selling manual transmissions at levels> that haven't been seen in a decade. Almost half of all European cars> are now shifters, the highest rate since 1988.>

Will this be a long lasting trend or a brief flash? It is still too> early to tell but it certainly shows that the old MT is going to be> harder to kill than it once appeared. The auto companies have now> learned that there is a solid base of buyers who prefer to shift for> themselves and the increased availability of this option is sure to> follow.>

http://www.nhtsa.do­t.gov/cars/rules/caf­e/NewPassengerCarFle­et.htm

Yes, I wonder how they (NHTSA) are defining "manual". Some of the> ones you listed are typical torque converter ("slushboxes") where> they just add a manual shifting mode. Others have actual manual> trannies, just with an electronic clutch, ex: BMW's SMG. I> believe your "Easytronic" is the latter?>

I wonder how many folk who buy the tiptronic type actually> manually shift. When I've driven those, I get tired of the> novelty in the first drive and just end out driving them like> every other automatic.

It's the Toyota system as used in the Prius and Ford Escape that can't have >a manual; in fact, it can't have any transmission at all. It has an >"electronic cvt" that is really just a pair of motor/generators in a >differential arrangement with the gas engine... there is no place to put a >transmission in the power train. If it were called a "virtual cvt" it would >be less confusing.

shhhhhhh......don't­ tell Honda, who sells them by the boatload with> manual transmissions.....

I also was under the impression that hybrids were only AT> (probably because Prius came out first),

I don't understand the mix of two electric motors and the CVT in the> Escape.

Describe that a little more, if you would. I have a Honda Civic Hybrid>with CVT, and I understand how it works. The IMA is fixed to the>crankshaft, so they are both turning at the same speed. The CVT is a steel>belt on movable "pinch" pulleys to provide the variable ratio.>

I don't understand the mix of two electric motors and the CVT in the>Escape. Short of buying the service manual, can you point to a decent>reference for how it really works? I've seen some misguided crud, but no>real explanation. I assume that it is the same as the Prius, so reference>to that would be good, unless I can spot a discrepancy.

No, the Prius came out after the Insight. Insight: 2000. Prius: >2001. Civic Hybrid: 2003.

Try this treatise:> http://home.earthli­nk.> net/~graham1/MyToyo­taPrius/Understandin­g/PowerSplitDevice.h­tm>

I can't vouch for it being 100% correct, but it is similar to what> I've read before about the Toyota hybrid drive. Basically, by> varying the motor/generator1 speed, one can control the ICE rpm.>

It's pretty neat, but also complex. 2 high-power> motor/generators.>

Well, I guess it depends on your definition of "transmission", but> I'd definitely say they have one! They have a set of planetary> gears (which automatic transmissions also use). And yes, as you> wrote, motor/generator is used to modify the gear ratio between> the ICE and the driveshaft, as well as supply torque.

Yes, I wonder how they (NHTSA) are defining "manual". Some of the> ones you listed are typical torque converter ("slushboxes") where> they just add a manual shifting mode. Others have actual manual> trannies, just with an electronic clutch, ex: BMW's SMG. I> believe your "Easytronic" is the latter?>

I think of the IMA as an electric turbocharger. It uses mostly wasted> energy later, to add some power to the little tiny gas engine that is able> to get high mileage. I wonder what kind of mileage the civic would get if> it just had the 1300cc engine, and no IMA. It is very simple to> understand, and rather obvious in operation.>

That site is by Graham Davies, one of the genuine Prius gurus. He writes >that he looked into it very carefully, and it is true - under many >conditions MG1 is used as a generator to provide power to MG2. It makes my >head hurt to visualize it.

I wonder what kind of mileage the civic would get if>it just had the 1300cc engine, and no IMA. It is very simple to>understand, and rather obvious in operation.

I don't understand the Escape very well yet.

I picture today's Escape as a Gas-Electric Hybrid, where the next>generation might be an Electric-Gas Hybrid.

Definitely doable. But it all depends what you want out of a > vehicle, and what you are willing to pay. Extended operation off > the battery requires a bigger, higher energy capacity battery.

Yep. That's how you can have a 50 kW motor, but only a 25 (30?)> kW battery driving it. Sometimes, actually quite often, at least> part of the electric power to drive the second motor comes from> the ICE driving the first motor as a generator. Basically, an> electric transmission. Generally I would not expect that> to be as efficient as a mechanical clutch.>

So the Prius system acts as both a mechanical and electrical> transmission.

Try this treatise:> http://home.earthli­nk.> net/~graham1/MyToyo­taPrius/Understandin­g/PowerSplitDevice.h­tm

I can't vouch for it being 100% correct, but it is similar to what > I've read before about the Toyota hybrid drive. Basically, by > varying the motor/generator1 speed, one can control the ICE rpm.

It's pretty neat, but also complex. 2 high-power > motor/generators.

Another reference:> http://www.me.utexa­s.edu/~tomr/body.htm­

<http://home.earthl­ink.net/~graham1/MyT­oyotaPrius/Understan­ding/PowerSplitDevic­e.htm>

I can't vouch for it being 100% correct, but it is similar to what

In article <n1n6415e4ld5568b02­dss1lue7vccg1us2@4ax­.com>,> gRmEcMgOrVeEw@minds­pring.com (Gordon McGrew) wrote:>

On the other hand, you can't have hybrid gas/electric with MT. It's > kind of a bummer because I like responsiveness of manuals but the > milage*power level is falling behind some automatics. Regenerative > braking, continuous gear ratios, ultra-lean burn, and cylinder bypassing > need to be coordinated with an AT. The decision was much more clear-cut > a few years ago when you chose between a peppy 5-speed manual or a > sluggish 3-speed automatic. Now cars like the Accord Hybrid make the > decision tough.

That has a drawing of a "conventional" (Honda-like) CVT that made me think> the article was all wrong. It's a paragraph or two later that it explains> the Toyota PSD, but even then the picture is wrong. It looks like the MG1> and CE are slaved on a single shaft.>

That made interesting reading. Doesn't cover all of the operation, but I> can fill in the rest... MG1 must be the "starter motor". MG2 supplies> regen braking. But I think I understand it now... The oddities are> compromises. It all makes sense.>

I don't see how it relates to the "combined HP" being less than additive> between the MG2 and the ICE. The MG2 maximum would be related to road> speed. The ICE could be held at its maximum HP, and the RPM of that has> little to do with the RPM of MG2. The MG1 output would be lower as ICE> went higher, so there would eventually be some electrical starvation as > the> batteries depleted, but it seems that you should be able to see maximum > MG2> horsepower added to the maximum ICE horsepower, at least for a few > seconds,> and maybe only at one particular road speed.>

At full output, a significant part of the engine power is channeled through > MG1 to MG2. That part limits the power of the system because the power can > only be counted once. For example, if you have a 100 hp engine and a 50 hp > motor, but at full power 20 hp of the motor output comes from the engine > through MG1 (rather than from the battery) the total is only 130 hp.

In article <4243de3a_4@x-priva­t.org>, "dragon" <dondragon38@hotmai­l.com> wrote:>>> >

Yes, I wonder how they (NHTSA) are defining "manual". Some of the >ones you listed are typical torque converter ("slushboxes") where >they just add a manual shifting mode. Others have actual manual >trannies, just with an electronic clutch, ex: BMW's SMG. I >believe your "Easytronic" is the latter?

I wonder how many folk who buy the tiptronic type actually >manually shift. When I've driven those, I get tired of the >novelty in the first drive and just end out driving them like >every other automatic.

Probably a good thing too as you would probably wear it out if you>started aggressively shifting it. The Problem is that Tiptronic et>al. don't really give you the control of an MT in that you can't>separate the engine from the drive train to allow rpm matching.

I had heard that. But at stall, that's 94 HP, isn't it? I've heard of> people getting stuck in potholes, because they couldn't move forward and> didn't have the power to move backward. I was trying to decide how I > could> test for that.>

I've heard that this power arrangement, where MG1 is draining power during> highest power demand, is due in part to the battery not having enough of > an> amperage rating to drive MG2 at full power, but I wonder about that. > Maybe> it just isn't efficeient to run at full power from the batteries for very> long, due to the total amp-hours available, and a balance has been> found that is more efficient.>

The engine is a resource of the hybrid computer and is only > under the most indirect control of the driver... about the way your heart > rate is under your control. I can floor the accelerator with the shifter in > "park" and hold it there. The engine gradually revs, reaching a peak of 2250 > rpm in a couple of minutes. Imagine trying to shift that arrangement.

I have an Escape, so the "2002 model" caught me off guard there. The> getting stuck part is being written as first hand in the Edmunds forum.> <http://townhall-ta­lk.edmunds.com/WebX?­ed_searchResults@89.­SvGQc8EKYPT.1@.ef0f4­df!keywords=allin%3A­msgtext%20limit%3A.e­f0f4df%20stuck&count­=20>>

It is said that applying throttle slowly doesn't work, because of overload> sensing. I have gotten "stuck" in a small ditch on my property. I seemed> stuck, but I had read the posting, so I got "more aggressive" with the> throttle. I might go try it again, with a normally cautious application > of> power, and see if the motor gives up.>

I had toyed with the lack of response, but hadn't held it there...>

Using a pronoun @ the start of a paragraph / sentence, before>the subject matter is introduced, indicates low IQ ; nobody will>know what the pronoun represents, before the subject matter is>introduced.

Honda did report on this. I forget the exact numbers, but it is> something like 1/3 due to the hybrid itself (regen, more efficient> power management), 1/3 engine downsizing and advanced technology,> and 1/3 lightweighting of the vehicle. Something like that.

Same as Prius. See other posts.>

Definitely doable. But it all depends what you want out of a> vehicle, and what you are willing to pay. Extended operation off> the battery requires a bigger, higher energy capacity battery.> The cost of the battery (and mass and volume) are pretty much> directly proportional to that energy capacity.>

And if you want sustained performance, ex: climbing Baker Grade in> california towing a trailer, you still need a lot of continuous> capability.

In article <d22387$b83$1@blue.­rahul.net>, dold@XReXXItXsX.use­net.us.com wrote:>

Honda did report on this. I forget the exact numbers, but it is > something like 1/3 due to the hybrid itself (regen, more efficient > power management), 1/3 engine downsizing and advanced technology, > and 1/3 lightweighting of the vehicle. Something like that.

Same as Prius. See other posts.>

Definitely doable. But it all depends what you want out of a > vehicle, and what you are willing to pay. Extended operation off > the battery requires a bigger, higher energy capacity battery. > The cost of the battery (and mass and volume) are pretty much > directly proportional to that energy capacity.>

And if you want sustained performance, ex: climbing Baker Grade in > california towing a trailer, you still need a lot of continuous > capability.

Kevin McMurtrie wrote:> > But the Accord Hybrid is rather different. As far as I can tell, the > > electric motor is to keep the engine running smoothly when it's > > switching in and out of gas saving modes. The power meter shows little > > activity and the 15 HP electric motor is tiny compared to the 240 HP gas > > motor.>

thats kinda cool. i wonder if they can use that in place of balance shafts?

But the Accord Hybrid is rather different. As far as I can tell, the >electric motor is to keep the engine running smoothly when it's >switching in and out of gas saving modes. The power meter shows little >activity and the 15 HP electric motor is tiny compared to the 240 HP gas >motor.