Review of BAR legal hearing

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CarGuru > Formula-1 > Review of BAR legal hearing 6 May 2005 04:40:19

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Review of BAR legal hearing
Graham Hodgson 4 May 2005 17:10:18
	The FIA knew about the second internal fuel tank after Malaysia inspections of all teams tanks. BAR claim they need to have 5.29g of fuel in the system for their collector to work, less than 6kg and the system works ineffictively. There is no issue about them running underweight. The main issue appears to be the use of fuel as ballast. BAR seem to be saying that it's not ballast, because it's required for the car to operate. Furthermore, they claim that it is not explicitly stated in the regulations how the weight is measured, whereas it is in other forms of motorsport. Cheers Graham -- Make a little birdhouse in your soul.
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Michael Burke 4 May 2005 22:57:31 [ permanent link ]
	"Graham Hodgson" <ttgmh@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3drvtqF6u4kvfU1@individual.net...> The FIA knew about the second internal fuel tank after Malaysia > inspections of all teams tanks.> BAR claim they need to have 5.29g of fuel in the system for their > collector to work, less than 6kg and the system works ineffictively. Based on the rules, this sounds like a major design flaw. Perhaps, some team can say they need a 3.5 L engine or else their system works inefficiently or ineffectually. Same story; different rule. There is no issue about them running underweight. I guess not. They were always underweight. The main issue appears to be the use of fuel as ballast. BAR seem to be > saying that it's not ballast, because it's required for the car to > operate. Furthermore, they claim that it is not explicitly stated in the > regulations how the weight is measured, whereas it is in other forms of > motorsport. I guess we'll see what the verdict is on Thursday! I won't be betting on BAR for a podium, though. ;) -- Michael Burke Cordova Bay Entertainment Group, Inc www.cordovabay.com
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F2005: 0 of 2 5 May 2005 02:55:21 [ permanent link ]
	On Wed, 04 May 2005 14:10:18 +0100, Graham Hodgson <ttgmh@hotmail.com> wrote:>The FIA knew about the second internal fuel tank after Malaysia >inspections of all teams tanks.> BAR claim they need to have 5.29g of fuel in the system for their >collector to work, less than 6kg and the system works ineffictively.> There is no issue about them running underweight. ...None ever: Always. The main issue appears to be the use of fuel as ballast. BAR seem to be >saying that it's not ballast, because it's required for the car to >operate. That may be [cough], but if they also need the fuel to reach 600kg it's prohibited balance, and that's simply indisputable.
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Phil Newnham 5 May 2005 03:01:25 [ permanent link ]
	F2005: 0 of 2 wrote:> On Wed, 04 May 2005 14:10:18 +0100, Graham Hodgson <ttgmh@hotmail.com>> wrote:>>The main issue appears to be the use of fuel as ballast. BAR seem to be >>saying that it's not ballast, because it's required for the car to >>operate. > That may be [cough], but if they also need the fuel to reach 600kg> it's prohibited balance, and that's simply indisputable. What? So if it's necessary in order for the car to operate, but without it the car would be underweight, it's ballast? What about the driver? Admittedly, in one or two cases, that's probably true, but afaik it's not in the rules... -- Phil http://www.usefilm.com/photographer/31307.html
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Da Frank 5 May 2005 03:27:09 [ permanent link ]
	On Thu, 05 May 2005 00:01:25 +0100, Phil Newnham <pnewnham@yahoo.com> wrote: F2005: 0 of 2 wrote:>> On Wed, 04 May 2005 14:10:18 +0100, Graham Hodgson <ttgmh@hotmail.com>>> wrote:>>>The main issue appears to be the use of fuel as ballast. BAR seem to be >>>saying that it's not ballast, because it's required for the car to >>>operate. >> That may be [cough], but if they also need the fuel to reach 600kg>> it's prohibited balance, and that's simply indisputable.> What? So if it's necessary in order for the car to operate, but without >it the car would be underweight, it's ballast? What about the driver? >Admittedly, in one or two cases, that's probably true, but afaik it's >not in the rules...> One question. Do other cars require this 6Kgs of fuel to operate ? If not, how do they get by ? If yes,how do they pass the weight test ? Ok, make it 3 questions.. -- Regards, Frank
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Tony C 5 May 2005 12:23:13 [ permanent link ]
	"Graham Hodgson" <ttgmh@hotmail.com> wrote in message> BAR claim they need to have 5.29g of fuel in the system for their > collector to work, less than 6kg and the system works ineffictively. Just checking then boys - this 'collector' - would this be BAR's solution to the problem of getting fuel out of the tank when it is low (given some teams recently have had, in their own words, fuel pick up problems when running on low fuel? Interesting story on pitpass.com regarding the manufacturer of fuel cells for a number of F1 teams being rather busy as new orders flood in. Makes you wonder if other teams are also trying some tank-tricks and are worried enough to cover their tracks http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=24313 TC
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Scott 5 May 2005 21:38:08 [ permanent link ]
	"Da Frank" <fajp@ooptushome.com.au> wrote in message news:n6mi711p7mad88mipil6fq4pi39hu1i5fl@4ax.com> On Thu, 05 May 2005 00:01:25 +0100, Phil Newnham> <pnewnham@yahoo.com> wrote:> F2005: 0 of 2 wrote:>>> On Wed, 04 May 2005 14:10:18 +0100, Graham Hodgson>>> <ttgmh@hotmail.com> wrote:>>>> The main issue appears to be the use of fuel as ballast. BAR>>>> seem to be saying that it's not ballast, because it's required>>>> for the car to operate.>>> That may be [cough], but if they also need the fuel to reach 600kg>>> it's prohibited balance, and that's simply indisputable.>> What? So if it's necessary in order for the car to operate, but>> without it the car would be underweight, it's ballast? What about>> the driver? Admittedly, in one or two cases, that's probably true,>> but afaik it's not in the rules...>> One question. Do other cars require this 6Kgs of fuel to operate ?> If not, how do they get by ? If yes,how do they pass the weight> test ? It seems as if the other teams need 2 or 3 kg of fuel to operate. Have any other cars been told to empty their tanks and then weighed before? I can't imagine any team standing up and saying "but we do this too". More likely every car will be >600kg with no fuel after the next race. Anyway, if BAR really need that 6 kg, and they can show it (ie engine stalls or seriously underpeforms when less than 6 kg), I don't see how it's ballast. Otherwise you could say the oil or the hydraulic fluid is also ballast...
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Ian Dalziel 6 May 2005 00:24:51 [ permanent link ]
	On 5 May 2005 10:49:32 -0700, brafield@hotmail.com wrote: Minimum 600kg without fuel. Look, I know had a limited education, but>I have figured out that it means that a car must weigh at least 600kg>without fuel. Small snag - it doesn't say that in the rules. If it did there would be no argument. -- Ian
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Geoff May 6 May 2005 01:17:06 [ permanent link ]
	Ian Dalziel wrote:> On 5 May 2005 10:49:32 -0700, brafield@hotmail.com wrote:> Minimum 600kg without fuel. Look, I know had a limited education, but>>I have figured out that it means that a car must weigh at least 600kg>>without fuel.> Small snag - it doesn't say that in the rules. If it did there would> be no argument. I'm surprised that FIA haven't issued a clarification of this one. I reckon it will save trouble in the future if they do clarify it NOW with: "Weight of the car and driver may not exceed 600 kg in a dry condition. Dry condition is the car without any liquid (fuel, water, oil and the gel that Ferrari are using in their tyres) and the driver after being denied liquids for 15 months". That would make sure that no one questions the weight limit, wouldn't it? MfG Geoff. -- Unofficial F1 Database: http://glibs.ssmmdd.co.uk/ Update: 5th May, 2005 USENET Email address is a spam trap, send Emails to address in the DB
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John Briggs 6 May 2005 02:23:49 [ permanent link ]
	Geoff May wrote:> Ian Dalziel wrote:>> On 5 May 2005 10:49:32 -0700, brafield@hotmail.com wrote:>> Minimum 600kg without fuel. Look, I know had a limited education,>>> but I have figured out that it means that a car must weigh at least>>> 600kg without fuel.>> Small snag - it doesn't say that in the rules. If it did there would>> be no argument.> I'm surprised that FIA haven't issued a clarification of this one. I> reckon it will save trouble in the future if they do clarify it NOW> with:> "Weight of the car and driver may not exceed 600 kg in a dry> condition. Dry condition is the car without any liquid (fuel, water,> oil and the gel that Ferrari are using in their tyres) and the driver > after being> denied liquids for 15 months".> That would make sure that no one questions the weight limit, wouldn't> it? The ICA judgement represents the clarification - there is no need for the FIA to do it. -- John Briggs
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Scott 6 May 2005 02:27:38 [ permanent link ]
	<brafield@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:1115315372.164422.47390@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Minimum 600kg without fuel. If it said that we wouldn't be having this problem. The whole reason for the "problem" is that it doesn't say that in the rules. The FIA Court seem to have cleared the situation somewhat, but we need a rule change, or clarification.
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Geoff May 6 May 2005 03:29:44 [ permanent link ]
	John Briggs wrote:> Geoff May wrote:> [snipped]>> I'm surprised that FIA haven't issued a clarification of this one. I>>reckon it will save trouble in the future if they do clarify it NOW>>[snipped]> The ICA judgement represents the clarification - there is no need for the > FIA to do it. True, I hadn't thought of that. Although, I can see some bugger in 15 years time saying "We weren't around in those days so that doesn't apply to us because it's not in the rules we signed". MfG Geoff. -- Unofficial F1 Database: http://glibs.ssmmdd.co.uk/ Update: 5th May, 2005 USENET Email address is a spam trap, send Emails to address in the DB
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Tim@Nocomment.Com 6 May 2005 04:08:32 [ permanent link ]
	Geoff May wrote: Ian Dalziel wrote:> On 5 May 2005 10:49:32 -0700, brafield@hotmail.com wrote:>> Minimum 600kg without fuel. Look, I know had a limited education, but>>> I have figured out that it means that a car must weigh at least 600kg>>> without fuel.>> Small snag - it doesn't say that in the rules. If it did there would>> be no argument.> I'm surprised that FIA haven't issued a clarification of this one. I > reckon it will save trouble in the future if they do clarify it NOW with:> "Weight of the car and driver may not exceed 600 kg in a dry condition. I don't think "exceed" is the correct word. Dry condition is the car without any liquid (fuel, water, oil and the > gel that Ferrari are using in their tyres) and the driver after being > denied liquids for 15 months".> That would make sure that no one questions the weight limit, wouldn't it?> Geoff.>
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Bigbird 6 May 2005 04:14:18 [ permanent link ]
	Geoff May wrote:> John Briggs wrote:> > Geoff May wrote:> > [snipped]> > > I'm surprised that FIA haven't issued a clarification of this> > > one. I reckon it will save trouble in the future if they do> > > clarify it NOW [snipped]> > The ICA judgement represents the clarification - there is no need> > for the FIA to do it.> True, I hadn't thought of that. Although, I can see some bugger in 15> years time saying "We weren't around in those days so that doesn't> apply to us because it's not in the rules we signed".> Well the judges found it in those rules once they can find it again.
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Geoff May 6 May 2005 04:40:19 [ permanent link ]
	tim@nocomment.com wrote:> Geoff May wrote:> [snipped]>> I'm surprised that FIA haven't issued a clarification of this one. I >> reckon it will save trouble in the future if they do clarify it NOW >> with:>> "Weight of the car and driver may not exceed 600 kg in a dry condition. <stupid keyboard> I don't think "exceed" is the correct word. Correction: "not exceed 600 kg" should read: "not be less than 600 kg even on them wonky scales that BAR use" MfG Geoff. -- Unofficial F1 Database: http://glibs.ssmmdd.co.uk/ Update: 5th May, 2005 USENET Email address is a spam trap, send Emails to address in the DB
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CarGuru > Formula-1 > Review of BAR legal hearing 6 May 2005 04:40:19

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Review of BAR legal hearing

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