Penalty if BAR are found guilty

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Penalty if BAR are found guilty
Emma 4 May 2005 13:43:25
	From GrandPrix.com:- The FIA has asked the FIA International Court of Appeal to exclude BAR-Honda from the 2005 Formula 1 World Championship and to fine the team at least $1.3m if the judges conclude that the team was guilty of running underweight at the San Marino Grand Prix at Imola. -- Emma - The Chocolate Monster http://www.chocmonster.rules.it http://www.altgallery.shows.it
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Bigbird 4 May 2005 13:49:53 [ permanent link ]
	Emma wrote:> From GrandPrix.com:-> The FIA has asked the FIA International Court of Appeal to exclude> BAR-Honda from the 2005 Formula 1 World Championship and to fine the> team at least $1.3m if the judges conclude that the team was guilty of> running underweight at the San Marino Grand Prix at Imola. Is that called getting off lightly?
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Da Frank 4 May 2005 14:15:58 [ permanent link ]
	On Wed, 4 May 2005 10:49:53 +0100, "Bigbird" <BigBird.usenet@REMTHSgmail.com> wrote: Emma wrote:>> From GrandPrix.com:->> The FIA has asked the FIA International Court of Appeal to exclude>> BAR-Honda from the 2005 Formula 1 World Championship and to fine the>> team at least $1.3m if the judges conclude that the team was guilty of>> running underweight at the San Marino Grand Prix at Imola.> Is that called getting off lightly? > Please.. What this news makes you do in your bedroom is your own thing. We don't need to know... As for Bar, it's gonna cost them a hell of a lot of money in lost revenues from sponsors. Honda(of course a sponsor themselves) will be pissed off too, as F1 is one of their major advertizing puppets. Let the conspiracies roll.. Wonder what or who pissed the FIA off against BAR and who is next ? This of course may put Bernie in a little trouble too, having to ask two teams to run 3 cars in order to make up the grid. So wondering a bit further, apart from Ferrari's, whose test restriction problems will be solved by excluding BAR from the season ? On the other hand, it seems like the typical "NO, it's not true that we're morons, we really do matter" knee jerk reaction from any FUBAR organization, such that the FIA is, so who knows.. Certainly a less than 1% error may deserve a fine and points stripped, but does not justfiy the exclusion of the team, especially when previous precedence is dead against it.. See Bennetton option 13, Michelin, etc. -- Regards, Frank
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Bigbird 4 May 2005 14:26:23 [ permanent link ]
	Da Frank wrote:> On Wed, 4 May 2005 10:49:53 +0100, "Bigbird"> <BigBird.usenet@REMTHSgmail.com> wrote:> Emma wrote:> > > From GrandPrix.com:-> > > The FIA has asked the FIA International Court of Appeal to exclude> > > BAR-Honda from the 2005 Formula 1 World Championship and to fine> > > the team at least $1.3m if the judges conclude that the team was> > > guilty of running underweight at the San Marino Grand Prix at> > > Imola.> > Is that called getting off lightly?> > Please.. What this news makes you do in your bedroom is your own> thing. We don't need to know... > As for Bar, it's gonna cost them a hell of a lot of money in lost> revenues from sponsors. Honda(of course a sponsor themselves) will be> pissed off too, as F1 is one of their major advertizing puppets.> Let the conspiracies roll.. > Wonder what or who pissed the FIA off against BAR and who is next ?> This of course may put Bernie in a little trouble too, having to ask> two teams to run 3 cars in order to make up the grid. So wondering a> bit further, apart from Ferrari's, whose test restriction problems> will be solved by excluding BAR from the season ?> On the other hand, it seems like the typical "NO, it's not true that> we're morons, we really do matter" knee jerk reaction from any FUBAR> organization, such that the FIA is, so who knows..> Certainly a less than 1% error may deserve a fine and points stripped,> but does not justfiy the exclusion of the team, especially when> previous precedence is dead against it..> See Bennetton option 13, Michelin, etc. Michelin?
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Everythpsartyh 4 May 2005 14:26:31 [ permanent link ]
	"Da Frank" <fajp@ooptushome.com.au> wrote in message news:t68h7118lnht4e4lpjnqraau7o3v4k6bl1@4ax.com...> On Wed, 4 May 2005 10:49:53 +0100, "Bigbird"> <BigBird.usenet@REMTHSgmail.com> wrote:> Emma wrote:> >> From GrandPrix.com:-> >> The FIA has asked the FIA International Court of Appeal to exclude> >> BAR-Honda from the 2005 Formula 1 World Championship and to fine the> >> team at least $1.3m if the judges conclude that the team was guilty of> >> running underweight at the San Marino Grand Prix at Imola.> > Is that called getting off lightly?> > Please.. What this news makes you do in your bedroom is your own> thing. We don't need to know... > As for Bar, it's gonna cost them a hell of a lot of money in lost> revenues from sponsors. Honda(of course a sponsor themselves) will be> pissed off too, as F1 is one of their major advertizing puppets.> Let the conspiracies roll.. > Wonder what or who pissed the FIA off against BAR and who is next ?> This of course may put Bernie in a little trouble too, having to ask> two teams to run 3 cars in order to make up the grid. So wondering a> bit further, apart from Ferrari's, whose test restriction problems> will be solved by excluding BAR from the season ?> On the other hand, it seems like the typical "NO, it's not true that> we're morons, we really do matter" knee jerk reaction from any FUBAR> organization, such that the FIA is, so who knows..> Certainly a less than 1% error may deserve a fine and points stripped,> but does not justfiy the exclusion of the team, especially when> previous precedence is dead against it..> See Bennetton option 13, Michelin, etc.> If BAR do get excluded, Schumacher/Brawn and Flavio should be thrown in jail for the Millions they made from blatant cheating in 94.
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Alan Gauton 4 May 2005 14:57:01 [ permanent link ]
	In article <P7b5bMC9kJeCFAgy@excalvehs.demon.co.uk>, Emma@excalvehs.demon.co.uk says...> From GrandPrix.com:-> The FIA has asked the FIA International Court of Appeal to exclude > BAR-Honda from the 2005 Formula 1 World Championship and to fine the > team at least $1.3m if the judges conclude that the team was guilty of > running underweight at the San Marino Grand Prix at Imola. Anyone like to define exclude? Would BAR be expected to run the races, but not be able to score points? Or would they not run at all? Cos, aren't there penalties involved if teams do not attend races, including loss of entry rights? -- AG Remove removes from address to remove anti-spam measures. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Alan Gauton E-Mail agauton @ postmaster.co.uk Never for me the lowered banner, never the last endeavour! (Damon Hill - 16th June 1999)
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Da Frank 4 May 2005 15:21:52 [ permanent link ]
	On Wed, 4 May 2005 11:26:23 +0100, "Bigbird" <BigBird.usenet@REMTHSgmail.com> wrote: <snip>>> Certainly a less than 1% error may deserve a fine and points stripped,>> but does not justfiy the exclusion of the team, especially when>> previous precedence is dead against it..>> See Bennetton option 13, Michelin, etc.> Michelin? > My mistake. I should have listed all the teams using those tyres which were found to have too wide a tread last year, but i thought i'll make it simple and just name Michelin. -- Regards, Frank
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Phil Newnham 4 May 2005 15:29:00 [ permanent link ]
	Da Frank wrote:> Certainly a less than 1% error may deserve a fine and points stripped,> but does not justfiy the exclusion of the team, especially when> previous precedence is dead against it.. > See Bennetton option 13, Michelin, etc. I think the precedent they have in mind is more likely Tyrrell. -- Phil http://www.usefilm.com/photographer/31307.html
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Da Frank 4 May 2005 15:31:08 [ permanent link ]
	On Wed, 4 May 2005 11:26:31 +0100, "everythpsartyh" <diwhichpartake@passdevstatknown.net> wrote: Certainly a less than 1% error may deserve a fine and points stripped,>> but does not justfiy the exclusion of the team, especially when>> previous precedence is dead against it..>> See Bennetton option 13, Michelin, etc.>> If BAR do get excluded, Schumacher/Brawn and Flavio should be thrown in jail>for the Millions they made from blatant cheating in 94.> Bennetton was fined and stopped for that. Not outright for that offence, since while it was glaringly obvious it could not be proven, but (IIRC) US$600,000 for ignoring the black flag. In '94 that was a lot of money and didn't seem to fit the crime of flagophobia. -- Regards, Frank
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Bigbird 4 May 2005 15:49:37 [ permanent link ]
	Da Frank wrote:> On Wed, 4 May 2005 11:26:23 +0100, "Bigbird"> <BigBird.usenet@REMTHSgmail.com> wrote:> <snip>> > > Certainly a less than 1% error may deserve a fine and points> > > stripped, but does not justfiy the exclusion of the team,> > > especially when previous precedence is dead against it..> > > See Bennetton option 13, Michelin, etc.> > Michelin?> > My mistake. I should have listed all the teams using those tyres which> were found to have too wide a tread last year, but i thought i'll make> it simple and just name Michelin. Oh don't go there again. You just end up looking even more stupid. No team was found to have too wide a tread last year. If you had any references I'm sure you would have provided them in the many previous threads on the subject. So you may as well just STFU on that subject. Go and measure your barge boards or something.
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Geoff May 4 May 2005 15:50:24 [ permanent link ]
	Dr Hfuhruhurr wrote:> Alan Gauton wrote:> In article <P7b5bMC9kJeCFAgy@excalvehs.demon.co.uk>,>>Emma@excalvehs.demon.co.uk says...>> From GrandPrix.com:->>> The FIA has asked the FIA International Court of Appeal to exclude>>>BAR-Honda from the 2005 Formula 1 World Championship and to fine the>>>team at least $1.3m if the judges conclude that the team was guilty of>>>running underweight at the San Marino Grand Prix at Imola.>> Anyone like to define exclude?>> Would BAR be expected to run the races, but not be able to score points?>>Or would they not run at all? Cos, aren't there penalties involved if>>teams do not attend races, including loss of entry rights?> http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/4508543.stm> Exclude = kicked out. Although there will most likely be an appeal if BAR are excluded and they will probably be allowed to run until the appeal is heard. Going to play merry hell with all F1 statistic databases... MfG Geoff. -- Unofficial F1 Database: http://glibs.ssmmdd.co.uk/ Update: 1st May, 2005 USENET Email address is a spam trap, send Emails to address in the DB
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Da Frank 4 May 2005 16:19:40 [ permanent link ]
	On Wed, 4 May 2005 12:49:37 +0100, "Bigbird" <BigBird.usenet@REMTHSgmail.com> wrote: Michelin?>> > My mistake. I should have listed all the teams using those tyres which>> were found to have too wide a tread last year, but i thought i'll make>> it simple and just name Michelin.> Oh don't go there again. You just end up looking even more stupid. No team >was found to have too wide a tread last year. If you had any references I'm >sure you would have provided them in the many previous threads on the >subject. So you may as well just STFU on that subject. Go and measure your >barge boards or something. > That's not the point. The point is that both alleged illegalities were as shoddy as each other. Interpretations, possibilities and probabilities galore, but no concrete evidence at all. Yet Michelin was forced to make a small redesign of the shoulders, Bennetton was forced to remove the option 13, Ferrari talked it's way out of the barge-gate. Now BAR is threatened to be thrown from the championship.. if you think that is rigth, then better up your meds. Oh by the way, i lost the tyre references when i was busy measuring the brake ducts.. And i'm a Williams fan you dumbass, but with both eyes working. Go figure.. -- Regards, Frank
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Ian Dalziel 4 May 2005 16:56:36 [ permanent link ]
	On Wed, 04 May 2005 21:21:52 +1000, fajp@ooptushome.com.au (Da Frank) wrote: My mistake. I should have listed all the teams using those tyres which>were found to have too wide a tread last year, but i thought i'll make>it simple and just name Michelin. Erm... You did. No teams were FOUND to have too wide a tread. (Especially last year) -- Ian
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Da Frank 4 May 2005 17:10:34 [ permanent link ]
	On Wed, 04 May 2005 13:56:36 +0100, Ian Dalziel <iandalziel@lineone.net> wrote: On Wed, 04 May 2005 21:21:52 +1000, fajp@ooptushome.com.au (Da Frank)>wrote:> My mistake. I should have listed all the teams using those tyres which>>were found to have too wide a tread last year, but i thought i'll make>>it simple and just name Michelin. > Erm... You did. No teams were FOUND to have too wide a tread.>(Especially last year) >> Bloody hell, i'm two years older then !! <cuts wrists> ps: I know, but again, it was the easiest way to put it. I could have gone into explaining what the (alleged)scenario was about corners, flexing and shoulders, but frankly it's an old and tired(pardon the pun) story, which we all know too well. -- Regards, Frank
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Vile Merchant 4 May 2005 17:43:12 [ permanent link ]
	"Dr Hfuhruhurr" <mike.rew@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1115205215.168546.261730@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...> Emma wrote:> > From GrandPrix.com:-> > The FIA has asked the FIA International Court of Appeal to exclude> > BAR-Honda from the 2005 Formula 1 World Championship and to fine the> > team at least $1.3m if the judges conclude that the team was guilty> of> > running underweight at the San Marino Grand Prix at Imola.> Wonder what will happen to JB & TS then?> Elsewhere to replace some other underperforming drivers?> Guesses?> JB to Williams after all? JB was the cheater he should be the first to face the firing squad!
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Bigbird 4 May 2005 18:30:07 [ permanent link ]
	Da Frank wrote:> On Wed, 4 May 2005 12:49:37 +0100, "Bigbird"> <BigBird.usenet@REMTHSgmail.com> wrote:> Michelin?> > > > My mistake. I should have listed all the teams using those tyres> > > which were found to have too wide a tread last year, but i> > > thought i'll make it simple and just name Michelin.> > Oh don't go there again. You just end up looking even more stupid.> > No team was found to have too wide a tread last year. If you had> > any references I'm sure you would have provided them in the many> > previous threads on the subject. So you may as well just STFU on> > that subject. Go and measure your barge boards or something.> > That's not the point. The point is that both alleged illegalities were> as shoddy as each other. Interpretations, possibilities and> probabilities galore, but no concrete evidence at all.> Yet Michelin was forced to make a small redesign of the shoulders,> Bennetton was forced to remove the option 13, Ferrari talked it's way> out of the barge-gate. Now BAR is threatened to be thrown from the> championship.. if you think that is rigth, then better up your meds.> Really depends on the evdence don't you think. Perhaps best discussed after this is known. Oh by the way, i lost the tyre references when i was busy measuring> the brake ducts.. And i'm a Williams fan you dumbass, but with both> eyes working. Go figure.. What? Are you saying most Williams fans are blind or half blind.
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Paul-B 4 May 2005 18:44:43 [ permanent link ]
	Vile Merchant wrote: "Dr Hfuhruhurr" <mike.rew@gmail.com> wrote in message> news:1115205215.168546.261730@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...> > Emma wrote:> > > From GrandPrix.com:-> > > The FIA has asked the FIA International Court of Appeal to exclude> > > BAR-Honda from the 2005 Formula 1 World Championship and to fine> > > the team at least $1.3m if the judges conclude that the team was> > > guilty> > of> > > running underweight at the San Marino Grand Prix at Imola.> > Wonder what will happen to JB & TS then?> > Elsewhere to replace some other underperforming drivers?> > Guesses?> > JB to Williams after all?> JB was the cheater he should be the first to face the firing squad! What's a "cheater"?
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Vile Merchant 4 May 2005 18:47:11 [ permanent link ]
	"Paul-B" <null@null.invalid.com> wrote in message news:3ds5erF6s6rgiU1@individual.net...> Vile Merchant wrote:> "Dr Hfuhruhurr" <mike.rew@gmail.com> wrote in message> > news:1115205215.168546.261730@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...> > > Emma wrote:> > > > From GrandPrix.com:-> > > > The FIA has asked the FIA International Court of Appeal to exclude> > > > BAR-Honda from the 2005 Formula 1 World Championship and to fine> > > > the team at least $1.3m if the judges conclude that the team was> > > > guilty> > > of> > > > running underweight at the San Marino Grand Prix at Imola.> > > Wonder what will happen to JB & TS then?> > > Elsewhere to replace some other underperforming drivers?> > > Guesses?> > > JB to Williams after all?> > JB was the cheater he should be the first to face the firing squad!> What's a "cheater"? It's a very fast animal from africa that has a secret fuel tank.
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Scott 4 May 2005 20:54:48 [ permanent link ]
	"Emma" <Emma@excalvehs.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news7b5bMC9kJeCFAgy@excalvehs.demon.co.uk> From GrandPrix.com:-> The FIA has asked the FIA International Court of Appeal Is the FIA International Court of Appeal not run by the FIA? If we lose BAR, the races won't be as exciting and there's no way Bernie would let that happen.
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Bigbird 4 May 2005 21:06:25 [ permanent link ]
	scott wrote:> "Emma" <Emma@excalvehs.demon.co.uk> wrote in message> news7b5bMC9kJeCFAgy@excalvehs.demon.co.uk> > From GrandPrix.com:-> > The FIA has asked the FIA International Court of Appeal> Is the FIA International Court of Appeal not run by the FIA?> 7) Is the Court independent of the FIA Sporting Authority? Yes. The Judges are elected by the FIA General Assembly and act entirely independently of the FIA executive. The ICA respects the 'adversarial principle' and more generally the rights of defence. The appellants and respondents, therefore, after having been given adequate notice of the hearing, have the right to set out their respective cases, call witnesses and submit evidence. The ICA decision's are reasoned (Article 189 of the ISC). There is also nothing to prevent any party from pursuing any right of action before any Court or Tribunal (Article 191bis of the ISC). These ICA procedures reinforce its independence. <http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=7984&newlang=&topic=8&catid=0>
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Ric Zito 4 May 2005 22:35:46 [ permanent link ]
	Da Frank <fajp@ooptushome.com.au> wrote: As for Bar, it's gonna cost them a hell of a lot of money in lost> revenues from sponsors. Honda(of course a sponsor themselves) will be> pissed off too, as F1 is one of their major advertizing puppets. Honda may well be directly responsible for this debacle, if they designed their engine around the "over 6kg to work" fuel pickup system. -- ric ric at pixelligence dot com
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Jago 4 May 2005 23:20:19 [ permanent link ]
	"Emma" <Emma@excalvehs.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news7b5bMC9kJeCFAgy@excalvehs.demon.co.uk...> From GrandPrix.com:-> [Ferrari] has asked the FIA International Court of Appeal to exclude > BAR-Honda from the 2005 Formula 1 World Championship and to fine the team > at least $1.3m if the judges conclude that the team was guilty of running > underweight at the San Marino Grand Prix at Imola.> -- > Emma - The Chocolate Monster> http://www.chocmonster.rules.it> http://www.altgallery.shows.it Obvious typo fixed. Jago ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
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Benjamin Bluemchen 5 May 2005 00:04:52 [ permanent link ]
	Da Frank wrote: That's not the point. The point is that both alleged illegalities were> as shoddy as each other. Interpretations, possibilities and> probabilities galore, but no concrete evidence at all. > Yet Michelin was forced to make a small redesign of the shoulders,> Bennetton was forced to remove the option 13, Ferrari talked it's way> out of the barge-gate. Now BAR is threatened to be thrown from the> championship.. if you think that is rigth, then better up your meds. Couldn't agree more, excluding BAR from this year's championship seems a bit harsh to me, there seems to be more behind it all. If found "guilty", make them tie 5.4 kg of lead ballast to each driver's helmet or whatever, but exclusion doesn't help anyone.
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T C 5 May 2005 04:09:41 [ permanent link ]
	On Wed, 4 May 2005 10:43:25 +0100, Emma <Emma@excalvehs.demon.co.uk> wrote: From GrandPrix.com:-> The FIA has asked the FIA International Court of Appeal to exclude >BAR-Honda from the 2005 Formula 1 World Championship and to fine the >team at least $1.3m if the judges conclude that the team was guilty of >running underweight at the San Marino Grand Prix at Imola. Wouldn't excluding BAR-Honda just strengthen the bid for a breakaway GPWC? BAR-Honda would now have nothing to lose by throwing all their weight behind it... -T-
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F/Fgeorge 5 May 2005 07:59:38 [ permanent link ]
	On Thu, 05 May 2005 00:09:41 GMT, T C <t@c.com> wrote: On Wed, 4 May 2005 10:43:25 +0100, Emma <Emma@excalvehs.demon.co.uk>>wrote:> From GrandPrix.com:->> The FIA has asked the FIA International Court of Appeal to exclude >>BAR-Honda from the 2005 Formula 1 World Championship and to fine the >>team at least $1.3m if the judges conclude that the team was guilty of >>running underweight at the San Marino Grand Prix at Imola.> Wouldn't excluding BAR-Honda just strengthen the bid for a breakaway>GPWC? BAR-Honda would now have nothing to lose by throwing all their>weight behind it...> -T- FIRST rule of negotiations...ask for more than what you will settle for, they just might give it to you!
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T C 5 May 2005 10:00:30 [ permanent link ]
	On Thu, 05 May 2005 03:59:38 GMT, f/fgeorge <ffgeorge@yourplace.com> wrote: On Thu, 05 May 2005 00:09:41 GMT, T C <t@c.com> wrote:> On Wed, 4 May 2005 10:43:25 +0100, Emma <Emma@excalvehs.demon.co.uk>>>wrote:>> From GrandPrix.com:->>> The FIA has asked the FIA International Court of Appeal to exclude >>>BAR-Honda from the 2005 Formula 1 World Championship and to fine the >>>team at least $1.3m if the judges conclude that the team was guilty of >>>running underweight at the San Marino Grand Prix at Imola.>> Wouldn't excluding BAR-Honda just strengthen the bid for a breakaway>>GPWC? BAR-Honda would now have nothing to lose by throwing all their>>weight behind it...>> -T->FIRST rule of negotiations...ask for more than what you will settle>for, they just might give it to you! But it can stilll generate a fair amount of bad blood... Might even cause some of the other teams to think" what if next time it's us?"... -T-
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F2005: 0 of 2 6 May 2005 07:24:12 [ permanent link ]
	On Wed, 4 May 2005 10:43:25 +0100, Emma <Emma@excalvehs.demon.co.uk> wrote:> From GrandPrix.com:-> The FIA has asked the FIA International Court of Appeal to exclude >BAR-Honda from the 2005 Formula 1 World Championship ...Up till now the traditional fine for running underweight. Don't hold your breath in 2005. ...Six years after the last British champion.
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Penalty if BAR are found guilty

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