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CarGuru > Formula-1 > That was great 20 March 2005 21:35:56

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That was great

Fritz 19 March 2005 09:57:44
 Good to see the Ferrari guys not smiling for once.
Could the Renault and Toyota's be for real?

Fritz
Add comment
Guest 19 March 2005 11:01:25 permanent link ]
 
Fritz wrote:
Could the Renault and Toyota's be for real?

Maybe.

You'd think that with their combined wealth and engineerin might,
they'd be able to beat a tiny manufacturer with annual production of
under 10,000 cars.

It was bound to happen sooner or later. If that's what's happening.

bp

Add comment
Sky 19 March 2005 11:16:11 permanent link ]
 Well, Ferrari is owned by Fiat - hardly a tiny manufacturer. And given that
Ferrari has more testing, and I believe a bigger budget, than any other F1
team, this is not exactly David and Goliath here.

<posner889@yahoo.co­m> wrote in message
news:1111215685.575­061.264350@l41g2000c­wc.googlegroups.com.­..>
Fritz wrote:>
Could the Renault and Toyota's be for real?>
Maybe.>
You'd think that with their combined wealth and engineerin might,> they'd be able to beat a tiny manufacturer with annual production of> under 10,000 cars.>
It was bound to happen sooner or later. If that's what's happening.>


Add comment
Russell Hobman 19 March 2005 11:50:26 permanent link ]
 What? Ferrari aren't getting the huge advantage of free testing on
Fridays..



"Sky" <sky@skymicro.net> wrote in message
news:k9udnURng4QiTK­bfRVn-gg@comcast.com­...> Well, Ferrari is owned by Fiat - hardly a tiny manufacturer. And given > that Ferrari has more testing, and I believe a bigger budget, than any > other F1 team, this is not exactly David and Goliath here.>
<posner889@yahoo.co­m> wrote in message > news:1111215685.575­061.264350@l41g2000c­wc.googlegroups.com.­..>>
Fritz wrote:>>
Could the Renault and Toyota's be for real?>>
Maybe.>>
You'd think that with their combined wealth and engineerin might,>> they'd be able to beat a tiny manufacturer with annual production of>> under 10,000 cars.>>
It was bound to happen sooner or later. If that's what's happening.>>


Add comment
Guest 19 March 2005 11:56:37 permanent link ]
 Sky wrote:> Well, Ferrari is owned by Fiat - hardly a tiny manufacturer.

Ferrari is owned by a holding company called FIAT sPa which also owns
the auto manufacturer called Fiat Auto.

Fiat Auto, the car company, does not own Ferrari, and there aren't
exactly a whole lot of engineering or financial links between the two.
Ferrari has more testing, and I believe a bigger budget, than any
other F1> team, this is not exactly David and Goliath here.

Nonetheless, their fortunes are limited by how many cars they can sell
and how much advertising they can sell. Both of which are potentially
dwarfed by multinational megaliths like Toyota, DiamlerChrysler and
Renault.

If one or more of those three actually got serious about winning in F1,
Ferrari won't be able to compete. It'll be 1983-1995 all over again.

bp

Add comment
Revitolose 19 March 2005 12:12:01 permanent link ]
 
<posner889@yahoo.co­m> wrote in message
news:1111218997.551­127.132220@z14g2000c­wz.googlegroups.com.­..> Sky wrote:> > Well, Ferrari is owned by Fiat - hardly a tiny manufacturer.>
Ferrari is owned by a holding company called FIAT sPa which also owns> the auto manufacturer called Fiat Auto.>
Fiat Auto, the car company, does not own Ferrari, and there aren't> exactly a whole lot of engineering or financial links between the two.>
Ferrari has more testing, and I believe a bigger budget, than any> other F1> > team, this is not exactly David and Goliath here.>
Nonetheless, their fortunes are limited by how many cars they can sell> and how much advertising they can sell. Both of which are potentially> dwarfed by multinational megaliths like Toyota, DiamlerChrysler and> Renault.>
If one or more of those three actually got serious about winning in F1,> Ferrari won't be able to compete. It'll be 1983-1995 all over again.>
bp

Ferrari purchased the best staff from the previous world champions,
difficult for Toyota and Renault to do at the moment.
Any bitterness towards Toyota is unjust, unless they clone Colin Chapman and
Jim Clark, which would still be more credible than just buying Benetton.


Add comment
Revitolose 19 March 2005 12:21:27 permanent link ]
 
<posner889@yahoo.co­m> wrote in message
news:1111215685.575­061.264350@l41g2000c­wc.googlegroups.com.­..>
Fritz wrote:>
Could the Renault and Toyota's be for real?>
Maybe.>
You'd think that with their combined wealth and engineerin might,> they'd be able to beat a tiny manufacturer with annual production of> under 10,000 cars.>
It was bound to happen sooner or later. If that's what's happening.

At least Toyota run Toyotas and not Alfa Romeo or Benettons under the Fiat
badge,
is it also bound to happen that Toyota will buy a winning team and dress
them in red?


Add comment
Probert 19 March 2005 14:01:32 permanent link ]
 
"russell hobman" <rhobman@hotmail.co­m> wrote in message
news:3a23u3F65icejU­1@individual.net...>­ What? Ferrari aren't getting the huge advantage of free testing on > Fridays..

Yes, they are... and Saturday testing (today, apparently) and possibly
Sunday testing (tomorrow, apparently, too); they're just not doing their
testing at the Grand Prix meeting.

Cheers,
Probert.

"Sky" <sky@skymicro.net> wrote in message > news:k9udnURng4QiTK­bfRVn-gg@comcast.com­...>> Well, Ferrari is owned by Fiat - hardly a tiny manufacturer. And given >> that Ferrari has more testing, and I believe a bigger budget, than any >> other F1 team, this is not exactly David and Goliath here.>>
<posner889@yahoo.co­m> wrote in message >> news:1111215685.575­061.264350@l41g2000c­wc.googlegroups.com.­..>>>
Fritz wrote:>>>
Could the Renault and Toyota's be for real?>>>
Maybe.>>>
You'd think that with their combined wealth and engineerin might,>>> they'd be able to beat a tiny manufacturer with annual production of>>> under 10,000 cars.>>>
It was bound to happen sooner or later. If that's what's happening.>>>


Add comment
Paul-B 19 March 2005 14:07:23 permanent link ]
 Revitolose wrote:

Any bitterness towards Toyota is unjust


Not really, when you look at their continuous record of cheating in the
varios motorsports they've competed in.

--
Paul-B
The original and the best
Add comment
Pete Fenelon 19 March 2005 14:18:48 permanent link ]
 Revitolose <na> wrote:> At least Toyota run Toyotas and not Alfa Romeo or Benettons under the Fiat> badge,> is it also bound to happen that Toyota will buy a winning team and dress> them in red?

No, they just nicked a design a couple of years ago and painted it red
and white.

pete
--
pete@fenelon.com "Send lawyers, guns and money...."
Add comment
Ric Zito 19 March 2005 14:54:26 permanent link ]
 Paul-B <null@null.invalid>­ wrote:
Revitolose wrote:>
Any bitterness towards Toyota is unjust>
Not really, when you look at their continuous record of cheating in the> varios motorsports they've competed in.

Hear hear.
--
ric

ric at pixelligence dot com
Add comment
F2004: 15 of 17*** 19 March 2005 23:31:08 permanent link ]
 On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 09:21:27 +0100, "Revitolose" <na> wrote:><posner889@y­ahoo.com> wrote in message>news:111121­5685.575061.264350@l­41g2000cwc.googlegro­ups.com...>> Fritz wrote:>> > Could the Renault and Toyota's be for real?>> Maybe.>>
You'd think that with their combined wealth and engineerin might,>> they'd be able to beat a tiny manufacturer with annual production of>> under 10,000 cars.

<5,000.
It was bound to happen sooner or later. If that's what's happening.>
At least Toyota run Toyotas and not Alfa Romeo or Benettons under the Fiat>badge,>is it also bound to happen that Toyota will buy a winning team and dress>them in red?

?

...Back in the hole, fuckwit.


Add comment
F2004: 15 of 17*** 19 March 2005 23:33:47 permanent link ]
 On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 11:54:26 +0100, ADDRESS@IN.SIG (ric zito) wrote:>Paul-B <null@null.invalid>­ wrote:>> Revitolose wrote:>> > Any bitterness towards Toyota is unjust>> Not really, when you look at their continuous record of cheating in the>> varios motorsports they've competed in.>
Hear hear.

...And somehow McLaren gets a free pass.

Add comment
C Story 20 March 2005 00:30:36 permanent link ]
 "F2004: 15 of 17*·**" <Ron.Dennis@LyingCh­eatingSwine.com> wrote in
news:bmvo315194ndar­ja7iu60149dcocv4equh­@4ax.com:
On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 11:54:26 +0100, ADDRESS@IN.SIG (ric zito) wrote:>>Paul-B <null@null.invalid>­ wrote:>>> Revitolose wrote:>>> > Any bitterness towards Toyota is unjust>>> Not really, when you look at their continuous record of cheating in the>>> varios motorsports they've competed in.>>
Hear hear.>
...And somehow McLaren gets a free pass.>

And in reality, they don't

Add comment
Guest 20 March 2005 07:54:26 permanent link ]
 
F2004: 15 of 17*·** wrote:
You'd think that with their combined wealth and engineerin might,> >> they'd be able to beat a tiny manufacturer with annual production
under 10,000 cars.>
<5,000.

Not including Maserati.

bp

Add comment
Guest 20 March 2005 07:55:44 permanent link ]
 
F2004: 15 of 17*·** wrote:
...And somehow McLaren gets a free pass.

Jeezis, when did you become so boring?

bp

Add comment
Bob Dubery 20 March 2005 08:01:11 permanent link ]
 
russell hobman wrote:> What? Ferrari aren't getting the huge advantage of free testing on> Fridays..
Are Renault?

Add comment
Bob Dubery 20 March 2005 08:08:16 permanent link ]
 
posner889@yahoo.com­ wrote:
Nonetheless, their fortunes are limited by how many cars they can
sell> and how much advertising they can sell. Both of which are potentially> dwarfed by multinational megaliths like Toyota, DiamlerChrysler and> Renault.>
If one or more of those three actually got serious about winning in
F1,> Ferrari won't be able to compete. It'll be 1983-1995 all over again.

Whilst F1 is an expensive game, money alone can never buy you success.
If it could then JV would have at least one more world championship to
his name.

Add comment
Bob Dubery 20 March 2005 08:13:41 permanent link ]
 
posner889@yahoo.com­ wrote:
It was bound to happen sooner or later. If that's what's happening.

Absolutely. All purple patches must end sometime. There are numerous
examples in various sports, but in F1 you can consider McLaren's period
of huge success from 1984 to 1991, followed by 2 seasons where they won
but never seriously challenged for a championship and then 4 years with
little to show.

'Twas ever thus. All things must pass. The thing to do is to see it and
appreciate it when you have the chance.

Add comment
Bob Dubery 20 March 2005 08:16:15 permanent link ]
 
F2004: 15 of 17*·** wrote:> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 09:21:27 +0100, "Revitolose" <na> wrote:> ><posner889@yahoo.c­om> wrote in message> >news:1111215685.57­5061.264350@l41g2000­cwc.googlegroups.com­...> >> Fritz wrote:> >> > Could the Renault and Toyota's be for real?> >> Maybe.> >>
You'd think that with their combined wealth and engineerin might,> >> they'd be able to beat a tiny manufacturer with annual production
under 10,000 cars.>
<5,000.

A figure kept deliberately low so as to preserve the brand's mystique.

The average Ferrari requires a little more outlay than the average
Toyota, so comparing the number of cars built by the two companies is
... well some might call it "fake".

Add comment
Guest 20 March 2005 08:27:43 permanent link ]
 
Bob Dubery wrote:
<5,000.>
A figure kept deliberately low so as to preserve the brand's
mystique.

Sure. It's called "profit maximization by a monopolist." i.e., building
more cars would result in less profit. Back when Ferrari was building
more cars (late 80s - early 90s) they were gushing red ink.
The average Ferrari requires a little more outlay than the average> Toyota, so comparing the number of cars built by the two companies is> ... well some might call it "fake".

Comparing revenues and manpower is not fake, however. On those bases,
Ferrari has done startlingly well in F1 over the past 5 years.
Remaining unchallenged at the pinnacle for that long, with much more
powerful companies chasing you, is no mean feat.

bp

Add comment


Richard Miller 20 March 2005 10:19:06 permanent link ]
 In message <1111292863.870727.­78310@z14g2000cwz.go­oglegroups.com>,
posner889@yahoo.com­ writes>Comparing revenues and manpower is not fake, however. On those bases, >Ferrari has done startlingly well in F1 over the past 5 years. >Remaining unchallenged at the pinnacle for that long, with much more >powerful companies chasing you, is no mean feat.

Oh, please! With all the help they have had from Bernie, and with far
and away the largest budget on the grid, it's been child's play.
--
Richard Miller
Add comment
F2004: 15 of 17*·** 20 March 2005 11:02:21 permanent link ]
 On 19 Mar 2005 19:54:26 -0800, posner889@yahoo.com­ wrote:>F2004: 15 of 17*·** wrote:>> >> You'd think that with their combined wealth and engineerin might,>> >> they'd be able to beat a tiny manufacturer with annual production of>> >> under 10,000 cars.>>
<5,000.>
Not including Maserati.

Maseratis were never Ferraris and it was recently divested back to
FIAT.

Add comment


Guest 20 March 2005 11:09:04 permanent link ]
 
F2004: 15 of 17*·** wrote:
Maseratis were never Ferraris and it was recently divested back to> FIAT.

Hadn't heard that. Are/were they being built in a separate factory to
Ferrari?

bp

Add comment
Bob Dubery 20 March 2005 14:27:14 permanent link ]
 
posner889@yahoo.com­ wrote:> Bob Dubery wrote:>
<5,000.> >
A figure kept deliberately low so as to preserve the brand's> mystique.>
Sure. It's called "profit maximization by a monopolist." i.e.,
building> more cars would result in less profit. Back when Ferrari was building> more cars (late 80s - early 90s) they were gushing red ink.>
The average Ferrari requires a little more outlay than the average> > Toyota, so comparing the number of cars built by the two companies
... well some might call it "fake".>
Comparing revenues and manpower is not fake, however. On those bases,> Ferrari has done startlingly well in F1 over the past 5 years.> Remaining unchallenged at the pinnacle for that long, with much more> powerful companies chasing you, is no mean feat.

Fair enough, and I certainly don't begrudge them the fruits of a job
very well done, but maybe Ferrari have more resources deployed in F1
than the other big names. They don't have the corporate resources that,
say, Toyota do, but most of these big manufacturers seem to not commit
to F1 in the way they could - probably because they have more
accountants and more shareholders.

Add comment


F2004: 15 of 18*·** 20 March 2005 18:45:42 permanent link ]
 On 19 Mar 2005 23:09:04 -0800, posner889@yahoo.com­ wrote:>F2004: 15 of 17*·** wrote:>
Maseratis were never Ferraris and it was recently divested back to>> FIAT.>
Hadn't heard that. Are/were they being built in a separate factory to>Ferrari?

The old Maserati works in Modena have been re-fitted to the 21st
century. Iirc, the only physical connection was engine blocks cast in
the Ferrari foundry.




Add comment
F2004: 15 of 18*·** 20 March 2005 18:45:49 permanent link ]
 On 19 Mar 2005 19:55:44 -0800, posner889@yahoo.com­ wrote:>F2004: 15 of 17*·** wrote:>> ...And somehow McLaren gets a free pass.>
Jeezis, when did you become so boring?

Probably sometime after 2002, when the effort to hobble Ferrari was
first codified.

Add comment
Mms 20 March 2005 21:35:56 permanent link ]
 
You'd think that with their combined wealth and engineerin might,>they'd be able to beat a tiny manufacturer with annual production of>under 10,000 cars.>
It was bound to happen sooner or later. If that's what's happening.


Poor little thing, they are in motorsport competition since 80 years
devoting their whole lives to racing cars
producing 10,000 top-of-the-range sports cars each year
and they ended beaten by a Twingo maker.
Life is too hard !

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CarGuru > Formula-1 > That was great 20 March 2005 21:35:56

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