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CarGuru > Ford > SVT for 2005 13 March 2005 21:30:53
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SVT for 2005

Joe 9 March 2005 03:43:16
 OK, so here's the official stuff for 2005:
http://www.svt.ford­.com/newsSvtSleeves.­asp

Out of the whole page, the only hard product SVT is apparently offering
for 2005 is a calendar. Or did I miss something?

Joe
Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies
Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC
Add comment
Guest 9 March 2005 19:49:38 [ permanent link ]
 That's correct. SVT will have no "product" in '05. In fact, it won't
have a "product" through most of '06 either. This was made clear by
Ford/SVT in several different venues :)­. The '07 Mustang SVT Cobra will
be revealed at the NY Auto Show that starts on March 25th, 2005,
although there is supposed to be a press day on the 23rd, I believe.
Target Job 1 is mid '06 for MY '07.

Add comment
Joe 10 March 2005 05:55:31 [ permanent link ]
 dwtalso@nuail.com wrote in news:1110383378.429­253.26280
@l41g2000cwc.google­groups.com:
That's correct. SVT will have no "product" in '05. In fact, it won't> have a "product" through most of '06 either. This was made clear by> Ford/SVT in several different venues :)­. The '07 Mustang SVT Cobra
will> be revealed at the NY Auto Show that starts on March 25th, 2005,> although there is supposed to be a press day on the 23rd, I believe.> Target Job 1 is mid '06 for MY '07.

What a shame. Why in the world is Ford holding up the show until MY
'07? Are they that crippled that they couldn't get it in showrooms
for '06? And there's not one single sentence about it on their web
site. Sounds to me like Ford doesn't want to commit to anything
regarding the Cobra.

Joe
Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies
Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC
Add comment
ZombyWoof 10 March 2005 06:53:14 [ permanent link ]
 On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 01:55:31 GMT, Joe <avoidingspam@nospa­m.com> wrote
something wonderfully witty:
dwtalso@nuail.com wrote in news:1110383378.429­253.26280>@l41g2000c­wc.googlegroups.com:­>
That's correct. SVT will have no "product" in '05. In fact, it won't>> have a "product" through most of '06 either. This was made clear by>> Ford/SVT in several different venues :)­. The '07 Mustang SVT Cobra >will>> be revealed at the NY Auto Show that starts on March 25th, 2005,>> although there is supposed to be a press day on the 23rd, I believe.>> Target Job 1 is mid '06 for MY '07.>
What a shame. Why in the world is Ford holding up the show until MY >'07? Are they that crippled that they couldn't get it in showrooms >for '06? And there's not one single sentence about it on their web >site. Sounds to me like Ford doesn't want to commit to anything >regarding the Cobra.>
What I don't understand is why no new Lightening based on the new
F-150 either. Doesn't make much sense to leave that area to Roush as
well.
--

"Maybe worshiping the cross and the painful death rather
than the well lived life really has distorted our sense
of who we are and what life is about." -- Author unkown
Add comment
Jack VR4 10 March 2005 20:23:58 [ permanent link ]
 
From what I have heard... they were not expecting the new F150 platform
to weigh as much as it does... now with the RAM SRT10 out... Ford does
not want a half-assed performance truck on the market.

Add comment
Guest 10 March 2005 20:54:27 [ permanent link ]
 Well, the very first sentence on that site is: "As the Ford Special
Vehicle Team closes the door on 2004 model-year sales, it now turns its
full attention to the work of bringing to market an all-new generation
of high-performance Ford vehicles, beginning with the next SVT Mustang
Cobra." :)­.

Granted, it's not details. However, I just got my SVT Enthusiast and
Hua Thai-Tang provides an editorial that will pretty much make him a
liar if an S197 SVT Mustang doesn't make it to market. Furthermore, the
magazine explicitly states it will provide full coverage of the SVT
Mustang Cobra reveal in NY in it's next issue.

Ford is monolithic enough to stomp on their best marketing and make
their own mouth-pieces look foolish, no doubt. I dunno, though, I am
optomistic :)­.

As for crippled, yeah, that might be kind of fair in some lights.
Here's what I know. The Ford GT project was a monster. A real nasty
one. At about the same time that it was creating GT, SVT was putting
together the SVT Focus, the SVT Lightning on the new F-150 chassis,
plus the S197 SVT Mustang. They got behind mainly because of the effort
involved in Job 1 on the GT and the Focus PLUS pushing the federal
certification of the modified F-150 and Mustang chassis. Added to that
the F-150 tranny they planned to use wasn't holding up to the desired
specific output and, while they do have options for that, they were in
the position of having to re-cert the system late in the process.

For the Mustang, the test mules have been on the road for more than two
years. But there were at least three, and maybe four, different
possible configurations for the power plant and there was a lot of
effort in finding a replacement IRS. The new system is more complicated
and I know that the powertrain control guys had a ton to do to get it
all working with certain configurations (Note: at the last SEMA there
were five supercharger options for the '05 Mustang GT, and I know for a
fact that not one kit was actually ready for market because at that
time tuning was still a problem :)­ ). It appears to me, as well, that
Ford wanted mules with several hundred thousand miles on them to back
up some of the decisions. They still didn't decide on the power plant
until last December (2004).

My opinion, pure speculation based on conversations with knowledgable
folks and no real data, is that Ford bit off a huge chunk with the GT
that was far, far bigger than they really want to admit. But it was
mandated that it succeed so it did...and everything else got slipped to
do it.

Add comment
ZombyWoof 10 March 2005 21:18:49 [ permanent link ]
 On 10 Mar 2005 08:23:58 -0800, "Jack VR4" <jack5oh@adelphia.n­et> wrote
something wonderfully witty:
From what I have heard... they were not expecting the new F150 platform>to weigh as much as it does... now with the RAM SRT10 out... Ford does>not want a half-assed performance truck on the market.>
Well they don't have to have a half-assed performance truck on the
market if they do it right. I just bought an `05 F-150 SXT regular
cab with flareside bed and I am here to tell ya they did a wonderful
job on this new generation of truck. It is the smoothest riding and
quietest pickup I've ever owned, and I've always owned a Truck of one
type or another for that past 3 decades. Hell they dam near got the
empty bed bunny-hop out of it on concrete roads with expansion joints,
which we unfortunately have a lot of in my area.

I've started creating my own SVT (Steve Vehicles Team) out of it. I'm
working from the outside in (appearance then performance) which is
backwards from my normal approach, but it is a Harley Hauler so poser
points are important :)­

Mostly using Roush parts & equipment from the Tejon model they built.
--

"Maybe worshiping the cross and the painful death rather
than the well lived life really has distorted our sense
of who we are and what life is about." -- Author unkown
Add comment
Joe 11 March 2005 06:19:10 [ permanent link ]
 dwtalso@nuail.com wrote in news:1110473667.724­232.18340
@g14g2000cwa.google­groups.com:
Well, the very first sentence on that site is: "As the Ford Special> Vehicle Team closes the door on 2004 model-year sales, it now turns
full attention to the work of bringing to market an all-new
generation> of high-performance Ford vehicles, beginning with the next SVT
Mustang> Cobra." :)­.

Right. But that's all they say. It's obvious that they haven't even
updated the page for months.
Granted, it's not details. However, I just got my SVT Enthusiast and> Hua Thai-Tang provides an editorial that will pretty much make him a> liar if an S197 SVT Mustang doesn't make it to market.

Does it say when it'll actually get there?
Furthermore, the> magazine explicitly states it will provide full coverage of the SVT> Mustang Cobra reveal in NY in it's next issue.

OK, so somebody will do a photo shoot at the show and write up an
article. It'll be interesting to see what's in it.
Ford is monolithic enough to stomp on their best marketing and make> their own mouth-pieces look foolish, no doubt. I dunno, though, I am> optomistic :)­.

I try, but it's hard when Ford's cried wolf as much as they have.
First, it was the Cobra's missing horsepower. Then the Lightning got
yanked. Now no Cobra for several years.
As for crippled, yeah, that might be kind of fair in some lights.> Here's what I know. The Ford GT project was a monster. A real nasty> one. At about the same time that it was creating GT, SVT was putting> together the SVT Focus, the SVT Lightning on the new F-150 chassis,> plus the S197 SVT Mustang. They got behind mainly because of the
effort> involved in Job 1 on the GT and the Focus PLUS pushing the federal> certification of the modified F-150 and Mustang chassis. Added to
that> the F-150 tranny they planned to use wasn't holding up to the
desired> specific output and, while they do have options for that, they were
the position of having to re-cert the system late in the process.>
For the Mustang, the test mules have been on the road for more than
years. But there were at least three, and maybe four, different> possible configurations for the power plant and there was a lot of> effort in finding a replacement IRS. The new system is more
complicated> and I know that the powertrain control guys had a ton to do to get
all working with certain configurations (Note: at the last SEMA
there> were five supercharger options for the '05 Mustang GT, and I know
for a> fact that not one kit was actually ready for market because at that> time tuning was still a problem :)­ ). It appears to me, as well,
that> Ford wanted mules with several hundred thousand miles on them to
back> up some of the decisions. They still didn't decide on the power
plant> until last December (2004).

All in all, it adds up to poor planning and execution. Other makers,
notably DC, have done more with less.
My opinion, pure speculation based on conversations with
knowledgable> folks and no real data, is that Ford bit off a huge chunk with the
that was far, far bigger than they really want to admit. But it was> mandated that it succeed so it did...and everything else got slipped
do it.

I agree with you, but that's what's disappointing. Ford could be
putting out some great vehicles if they'd get their in-house act
together more. But based on their track record, they've got a lot to
do.

Joe
Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies
Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC
Add comment
Michael Johnson 11 March 2005 07:18:32 [ permanent link ]
 Joe wrote:> Does it say when it'll actually get there?

I bet Ford is delaying the release of the Cobra for two years to give
Mustang sales a boost just as interest in the car starts to fade some.
This is what they did with the release of the Bullit, Mach etc. Since
the car has received good press and sales are strong there is really no
reason to release another model that would steal some of the thunder
from the GT. In a couple years they will need the Cobra to give the
Mustang lineup an injection of adrenaline.
Add comment
Joe 11 March 2005 18:06:21 [ permanent link ]
 "Michael Johnson, PE" <cds@erols.com> wrote in
news:1oSdnWOLbbebk6­zfRVn-oQ@comcast.com­:
Joe wrote:>> Does it say when it'll actually get there?>
I bet Ford is delaying the release of the Cobra for two years to> give Mustang sales a boost just as interest in the car starts to> fade some. This is what they did with the release of the Bullit,> Mach etc. Since the car has received good press and sales are> strong there is really no reason to release another model that would> steal some of the thunder from the GT. In a couple years they will> need the Cobra to give the Mustang lineup an injection of> adrenaline.

Could be, but (a) I don't think the Mustang will need any help with
sales, and (b) I think the Cobra will sell regardless, as it's got its
own hardcore audience. Nonetheless, it will be interesting to see
what transpires down the road apiece...

Joe
Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies
Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC
Add comment
ZombyWoof 11 March 2005 19:34:13 [ permanent link ]
 On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:06:21 GMT, Joe <avoidingspam@nospa­m.com> wrote
something wonderfully witty:
"Michael Johnson, PE" <cds@erols.com> wrote in>news:1oSdnWOLbbe­bk6zfRVn-oQ@comcast.­com: >
Joe wrote:>>> Does it say when it'll actually get there?>>
I bet Ford is delaying the release of the Cobra for two years to>> give Mustang sales a boost just as interest in the car starts to>> fade some. This is what they did with the release of the Bullit,>> Mach etc. Since the car has received good press and sales are>> strong there is really no reason to release another model that would>> steal some of the thunder from the GT. In a couple years they will>> need the Cobra to give the Mustang lineup an injection of>> adrenaline.>
Could be, but (a) I don't think the Mustang will need any help with >sales, and (b) I think the Cobra will sell regardless, as it's got its >own hardcore audience. Nonetheless, it will be interesting to see >what transpires down the road apiece...>
Could be anybodies guess unless some here works for Ford in the
strategic arena. Now my guess is that they will continue on in the
vein of other cars within the Mustang linage. Will the Cobra come
back? Yeah without a doubt. Whether or not it will follow previous
incarnations is anybodies guess, but for some reason I doubt it.

Maybe they will bring out a new niche model like the Mach 1 or maybe
they will pick another specialty version of the Mustang. Perhaps a
Boss or maybe a GT-350 using the 5.4 instead of the 4.6. I really do
think they will look to the first generation of Mustangs for their
inspiration given the current body style has gone retro. I really do
think a GT-350 would fit right in with the current body style.
--

"Maybe worshiping the cross and the painful death rather
than the well lived life really has distorted our sense
of who we are and what life is about." -- Author unkown
Add comment
Lab~Rat 11 March 2005 19:58:16 [ permanent link ]
 On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 01:55:31 GMT, Joe <avoidingspam@nospa­m.com> puked:
dwtalso@nuail.com wrote in news:1110383378.429­253.26280>@l41g2000c­wc.googlegroups.com:­>
That's correct. SVT will have no "product" in '05. In fact, it won't>> have a "product" through most of '06 either. This was made clear by>> Ford/SVT in several different venues :)­. The '07 Mustang SVT Cobra >will>> be revealed at the NY Auto Show that starts on March 25th, 2005,>> although there is supposed to be a press day on the 23rd, I believe.>> Target Job 1 is mid '06 for MY '07.>
What a shame. Why in the world is Ford holding up the show until MY >'07? Are they that crippled that they couldn't get it in showrooms >for '06? And there's not one single sentence about it on their web >site. Sounds to me like Ford doesn't want to commit to anything >regarding the Cobra.>

If the GTs are selling as well as it sounds, there's no reason to up
the ante at this point. What would they be competing with anyway?

Of course it's just a rumor, but there's talk of a re-release of the
Camaro around '06-'07, so then it would make sense to bring the guns
to the table.

--
lab~rat >:-)
The less you care, the more it doesn't matter.
Add comment
Brent P 11 March 2005 23:23:03 [ permanent link ]
 In article <wZqdnceZ2N7deqzfRV­n-qg@comcast.com>, Michael Johnson, PE wrote:
I think they are too. The sad fact is that even though Ford has given > us some very nice performing cars/trucks via SVT's efforts it really > hasn't done anything to improve the companies overall bottom line.

Because they don't build these cars to demand. They build them as
collectables. And unless they can get many times what it cost them to
build, they won't even be a blip on ford's bottom line.

The cars are more or less advertising when built and sold like this, and not
much more. If a cobra isn't going sell a large number of 6 cylinder base
cars then ford will drop it IMO. If ford built these cars to demand maybe
they could add to the bottom line. I don't really want to bid for a
cobra, which is nothing more than the top level mustang configuration to
satisify some dealer's greed. It's not some supercar that they can hand
build only 12 a year. It's a somewhat improved version of a MASS PRODUCED
CAR. 30 years from now we'll know if it's a collectable or not, I'm not
buying a car to put in shrink wrap for 30 years anyway.

Add comment
Michael Johnson 11 March 2005 23:50:18 [ permanent link ]
 Brent P wrote:> In article <wZqdnceZ2N7deqzfRV­n-qg@comcast.com>, Michael Johnson, PE wrote:>
I think they are too. The sad fact is that even though Ford has given >>us some very nice performing cars/trucks via SVT's efforts it really >>hasn't done anything to improve the companies overall bottom line. >
Because they don't build these cars to demand. They build them as > collectables. And unless they can get many times what it cost them to > build, they won't even be a blip on ford's bottom line. >
The cars are more or less advertising when built and sold like this, and not > much more. If a cobra isn't going sell a large number of 6 cylinder base > cars then ford will drop it IMO. If ford built these cars to demand maybe > they could add to the bottom line. I don't really want to bid for a > cobra, which is nothing more than the top level mustang configuration to > satisify some dealer's greed. It's not some supercar that they can hand > build only 12 a year. It's a somewhat improved version of a MASS PRODUCED > CAR. 30 years from now we'll know if it's a collectable or not, I'm not > buying a car to put in shrink wrap for 30 years anyway.

I think we are both saying the same thing. Unfortunately the SVT
vehicles have not helped Ford sell cars. IMO, this gives more strength
to the bean counters argument (assuming there is one) to ax the entire
SVT concept (and the Cobra along with it). If that happens then Ford's
performance cars will suffer, IMHO, of course. The existence of SVT and
its influence on the DEW Mustang design team is likely the biggest
reason that the current Mustang performs so well. My fear is the only
type of performance cars Ford might be interested in developing in the
future will be the mega dollar (i.e. highly profitable) supercars like
the Ford GT. This could also lead to the eventual termination of the
Mustang. Chevy did it to the Camaro and Ford could do it to the Mustang.
Add comment
Brent P 12 March 2005 00:27:10 [ permanent link ]
 In article <Xns961690AD46F5Fdm­urph740aolcom@130.13­3.1.4>, Dan Murphy wrote:
etc.. From what I've read SVT wasn't going to limit the price to under 40k. > That only makes sense with a Shelby badged SCCA race car. It fits a niche, > and doesn't have to compete in the market head to head with much else in > the way of American cars.

The higher the price goes, the more a 'somewhat better' mustang isn't
going to cut it IMO. What I mean by this, is the penalty paid for being
based on the same platform as the basic V6 mustang.

As the price extends beyond 40K, the more people start thinking about
other alternatives, vettes, porsche, BMW, etc and so forth. One begins to
ask the question, best new mustang or slightly used 911? If the price for
these mustangs is going to be 40, 50, even pushing 60K, why get a car
that is compromised in whatever for due to the needs of the V6 base car?

Such a thing would work for the niche that wants such a mustang. But
there is competition out there performance wise in the US market.



Add comment
Dan Murphy 12 March 2005 02:29:29 [ permanent link ]
 tetraethylleadREMOVE­THIS@yahoo.com (Brent P) wrote in
news:3uadnSoobeiDYq­zfRVn-qA@comcast.com­:
In article <Xns961690AD46F5Fdm­urph740aolcom@130.13­3.1.4>, Dan Murphy> wrote: >
etc.. From what I've read SVT wasn't going to limit the price to>> under 40k. That only makes sense with a Shelby badged SCCA race car.>> It fits a niche, and doesn't have to compete in the market head to>> head with much else in the way of American cars.>
The higher the price goes, the more a 'somewhat better' mustang isn't > going to cut it IMO. What I mean by this, is the penalty paid for> being based on the same platform as the basic V6 mustang.

Right, but SVT isn't ever going to be a high volume deal anyway.
As the price extends beyond 40K, the more people start thinking about > other alternatives, vettes, porsche, BMW, etc and so forth. One begins> to ask the question, best new mustang or slightly used 911? If the> price for these mustangs is going to be 40, 50, even pushing 60K, why> get a car that is compromised in whatever for due to the needs of the> V6 base car?

Even at 60 grand what are you going to buy from Porsche? Or even BMW?
Then you take it to an SCCA event and get lapped by a version of the car
your secretary is driving. The new 'stang is already off to a good start.
http://www.allpar.c­om/cars/lx/dodge-cha­rger.html. Actually in recent
years it's been Vipers, Cadillac, and Audis. BMW and Porsche are too
expensive and too slow. The 3 series and smaller cars race in a different
class than the Mustang.
Such a thing would work for the niche that wants such a mustang. But > there is competition out there performance wise in the US market.

Not really. The Viper and Vette are special built platforms. The Mustang
benefits from mass produced cheap components. I'm betting the new SVT
will be in the ball park horse power wise but 20-30 grand less than a
Viper or a C6 Vette. There is definitely a market for a car like that,
especially with Shelby's name on it. Even if it does look like a
secretary's 6 cylinder commuter car and doesn't handle as well.

Dan
Add comment
Joe 12 March 2005 02:44:28 [ permanent link ]
 "Michael Johnson, PE" <cds@erols.com> wrote in
news:H_-dnRoFlfnja6­zfRVn-qQ@comcast.com­:
Brent P wrote:>> In article <wZqdnceZ2N7deqzfRV­n-qg@comcast.com>, Michael Johnson,>> PE wrote: >>
I think they are too. The sad fact is that even though Ford has>>>given us some very nice performing cars/trucks via SVT's efforts it>>>really hasn't done anything to improve the companies overall bottom>>>line. >>
Because they don't build these cars to demand. They build them as >> collectables. And unless they can get many times what it cost them>> to build, they won't even be a blip on ford's bottom line. >>
The cars are more or less advertising when built and sold like>> this, and not much more. If a cobra isn't going sell a large number>> of 6 cylinder base cars then ford will drop it IMO. If ford built>> these cars to demand maybe they could add to the bottom line. I>> don't really want to bid for a cobra, which is nothing more than>> the top level mustang configuration to satisify some dealer's>> greed. It's not some supercar that they can hand build only 12 a>> year. It's a somewhat improved version of a MASS PRODUCED CAR. 30>> years from now we'll know if it's a collectable or not, I'm not >> buying a car to put in shrink wrap for 30 years anyway. >
I think we are both saying the same thing. Unfortunately the SVT > vehicles have not helped Ford sell cars. IMO, this gives more> strength to the bean counters argument (assuming there is one) to ax> the entire SVT concept (and the Cobra along with it). If that> happens then Ford's performance cars will suffer, IMHO, of course. > The existence of SVT and its influence on the DEW Mustang design> team is likely the biggest reason that the current Mustang performs> so well. My fear is the only type of performance cars Ford might be> interested in developing in the future will be the mega dollar (i.e.> highly profitable) supercars like the Ford GT. This could also lead> to the eventual termination of the Mustang. Chevy did it to the> Camaro and Ford could do it to the Mustang.

I don't think the Mustang will be phased out anytime soon, as it's a
decent money-maker for the beanies. However, I agree with everything
else you guys have said.

The niche for a new Cobra is getting tight. Nobody's going to want to
pay big bucks for the same platform that the V6 is riding on (even
with mega-horsepower), as it's got its own limitations. If SVT's
going to survive, it's got to come out with a new car that will make
people drool over it, and they've got to make a profit doing it.

Joe
Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies
Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC
Add comment
Michael Johnson 12 March 2005 10:00:15 [ permanent link ]
 Joe wrote:> "Michael Johnson, PE" <cds@erols.com> wrote in> news:H_-dnRoFlfnja6­zfRVn-qQ@comcast.com­: >
Brent P wrote:>>
In article <wZqdnceZ2N7deqzfRV­n-qg@comcast.com>, Michael Johnson,>>>PE wrote: >>>
I think they are too. The sad fact is that even though Ford has>>>>given us some very nice performing cars/trucks via SVT's efforts it>>>>really hasn't done anything to improve the companies overall bottom>>>>line. >>>
Because they don't build these cars to demand. They build them as >>>collectables. And unless they can get many times what it cost them>>>to build, they won't even be a blip on ford's bottom line. >>>
The cars are more or less advertising when built and sold like>>>this, and not much more. If a cobra isn't going sell a large number>>>of 6 cylinder base cars then ford will drop it IMO. If ford built>>>these cars to demand maybe they could add to the bottom line. I>>>don't really want to bid for a cobra, which is nothing more than>>>the top level mustang configuration to satisify some dealer's>>>greed. It's not some supercar that they can hand build only 12 a>>>year. It's a somewhat improved version of a MASS PRODUCED CAR. 30>>>years from now we'll know if it's a collectable or not, I'm not >>>buying a car to put in shrink wrap for 30 years anyway. >>
I think we are both saying the same thing. Unfortunately the SVT >>vehicles have not helped Ford sell cars. IMO, this gives more>>strength to the bean counters argument (assuming there is one) to ax>>the entire SVT concept (and the Cobra along with it). If that>>happens then Ford's performance cars will suffer, IMHO, of course. >>The existence of SVT and its influence on the DEW Mustang design>>team is likely the biggest reason that the current Mustang performs>>so well. My fear is the only type of performance cars Ford might be>>interested in developing in the future will be the mega dollar (i.e.>>highly profitable) supercars like the Ford GT. This could also lead>>to the eventual termination of the Mustang. Chevy did it to the>>Camaro and Ford could do it to the Mustang.>
I don't think the Mustang will be phased out anytime soon, as it's a > decent money-maker for the beanies. However, I agree with everything > else you guys have said.>
The niche for a new Cobra is getting tight. Nobody's going to want to > pay big bucks for the same platform that the V6 is riding on (even > with mega-horsepower), as it's got its own limitations. If SVT's > going to survive, it's got to come out with a new car that will make > people drool over it, and they've got to make a profit doing it.

IMO, the DEW Cobra has to be about the same level of improvement as the
DEW GT is over the SN95 GT for about the same price as the SN95 Cobra.
Add comment
Brent P 12 March 2005 11:28:29 [ permanent link ]
 In article <Xns9616A7BBD719Bdm­urph740aolcom@130.13­3.1.4>, Dan Murphy wrote:
Even at 60 grand what are you going to buy from Porsche? Or even BMW? > Then you take it to an SCCA event and get lapped by a version of the car > your secretary is driving. The new 'stang is already off to a good start.

I dunno about the new stang, but SN95 was between a rock and hard place
wrt to SCCA solo 2 when I went to the training course and autoX a few
years back.
http://www.allpar.c­om/cars/lx/dodge-cha­rger.html. Actually in recent > years it's been Vipers, Cadillac, and Audis. BMW and Porsche are too > expensive and too slow. The 3 series and smaller cars race in a different > class than the Mustang.

All I know is, the only other guy running a mustang besides me was giving
his up for a porsche and he was already bending the rules with the
mustang. Of course my experience is really very limited.
Such a thing would work for the niche that wants such a mustang. But >> there is competition out there performance wise in the US market.
Not really. The Viper and Vette are special built platforms. The Mustang > benefits from mass produced cheap components.

What's the benefit when ford is going to over charge, keep production
down so dealers can gouge, and let the car's performance suffer because
they won't put the money into it to make up for compromises done for the
6 cylinder base car, let alone the ones they can't do anything about.
I'm betting the new SVT > will be in the ball park horse power wise but 20-30 grand less than a > Viper or a C6 Vette. There is definitely a market for a car like that, > especially with Shelby's name on it. Even if it does look like a > secretary's 6 cylinder commuter car and doesn't handle as well.

If they keep the price under 40K and do it right yes. But here are the
rumors that it's going to shatter 40K, and not have IRS. Sales droid at
the stealership was telling me 55K and no IRS. I don't think a couple
suspension mods and more powerful mod motor are worth a 25 grand premium.
Of course, the sales droid could be wrong, and I assumed he was until
reading the same sort of thing here.



Add comment
Joe 12 March 2005 18:52:38 [ permanent link ]
 "Michael Johnson, PE" <nospam@ourhouse.co­m> wrote in
news:BOmdne3RiIrzGK­_fRVn-rg@comcast.com­:
Joe wrote:>> "Michael Johnson, PE" <cds@erols.com> wrote in>> news:H_-dnRoFlfnja6­zfRVn-qQ@comcast.com­: >>
Brent P wrote:>>>
In article <wZqdnceZ2N7deqzfRV­n-qg@comcast.com>, Michael Johnson,>>>>PE wrote: >>>>
I think they are too. The sad fact is that even though Ford has>>>>>given us some very nice performing cars/trucks via SVT's efforts>>>>>it really hasn't done anything to improve the companies overall>>>>>bottom line. >>>>
Because they don't build these cars to demand. They build them as >>>>collectables. And unless they can get many times what it cost them>>>>to build, they won't even be a blip on ford's bottom line. >>>>
The cars are more or less advertising when built and sold like>>>>this, and not much more. If a cobra isn't going sell a large>>>>number of 6 cylinder base cars then ford will drop it IMO. If ford>>>>built these cars to demand maybe they could add to the bottom>>>>line. I don't really want to bid for a cobra, which is nothing>>>>more than the top level mustang configuration to satisify some>>>>dealer's greed. It's not some supercar that they can hand build>>>>only 12 a year. It's a somewhat improved version of a MASS>>>>PRODUCED CAR. 30 years from now we'll know if it's a collectable>>>>or not, I'm not buying a car to put in shrink wrap for 30 years>>>>anyway. >>>
I think we are both saying the same thing. Unfortunately the SVT >>>vehicles have not helped Ford sell cars. IMO, this gives more>>>strength to the bean counters argument (assuming there is one) to>>>ax the entire SVT concept (and the Cobra along with it). If that>>>happens then Ford's performance cars will suffer, IMHO, of course. >>>The existence of SVT and its influence on the DEW Mustang design>>>team is likely the biggest reason that the current Mustang performs>>>so well. My fear is the only type of performance cars Ford might>>>be interested in developing in the future will be the mega dollar>>>(i.e. highly profitable) supercars like the Ford GT. This could>>>also lead to the eventual termination of the Mustang. Chevy did it>>>to the Camaro and Ford could do it to the Mustang.>>
I don't think the Mustang will be phased out anytime soon, as it's>> a decent money-maker for the beanies. However, I agree with>> everything else you guys have said.>>
The niche for a new Cobra is getting tight. Nobody's going to want>> to pay big bucks for the same platform that the V6 is riding on>> (even with mega-horsepower), as it's got its own limitations. If>> SVT's going to survive, it's got to come out with a new car that>> will make people drool over it, and they've got to make a profit>> doing it. >
IMO, the DEW Cobra has to be about the same level of improvement as> the DEW GT is over the SN95 GT for about the same price as the SN95> Cobra.

Tough bill to fill. I hope they can do it.

Joe
Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies
Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC
Add comment
Michael Johnson 12 March 2005 19:48:58 [ permanent link ]
 Joe wrote:> "Michael Johnson, PE" <nospam@ourhouse.co­m> wrote in> news:BOmdne3RiIrzGK­_fRVn-rg@comcast.com­: >
Joe wrote:>>
"Michael Johnson, PE" <cds@erols.com> wrote in>>>news:H_-dnRoFl­fnja6zfRVn-qQ@comcas­t.com: >>>
Brent P wrote:>>>>
In article <wZqdnceZ2N7deqzfRV­n-qg@comcast.com>, Michael Johnson,>>>>>PE wrote: >>>>>
I think they are too. The sad fact is that even though Ford has>>>>>>given us some very nice performing cars/trucks via SVT's efforts>>>>>>it really hasn't done anything to improve the companies overall>>>>>>bottom­ line. >>>>>
Because they don't build these cars to demand. They build them as >>>>>collectables. And unless they can get many times what it cost them>>>>>to build, they won't even be a blip on ford's bottom line. >>>>>
The cars are more or less advertising when built and sold like>>>>>this, and not much more. If a cobra isn't going sell a large>>>>>number of 6 cylinder base cars then ford will drop it IMO. If ford>>>>>built these cars to demand maybe they could add to the bottom>>>>>line. I don't really want to bid for a cobra, which is nothing>>>>>more than the top level mustang configuration to satisify some>>>>>dealer's greed. It's not some supercar that they can hand build>>>>>only 12 a year. It's a somewhat improved version of a MASS>>>>>PRODUCED CAR. 30 years from now we'll know if it's a collectable>>>>>or not, I'm not buying a car to put in shrink wrap for 30 years>>>>>anyway. >>>>
I think we are both saying the same thing. Unfortunately the SVT >>>>vehicles have not helped Ford sell cars. IMO, this gives more>>>>strength to the bean counters argument (assuming there is one) to>>>>ax the entire SVT concept (and the Cobra along with it). If that>>>>happens then Ford's performance cars will suffer, IMHO, of course. >>>>The existence of SVT and its influence on the DEW Mustang design>>>>team is likely the biggest reason that the current Mustang performs>>>>so well. My fear is the only type of performance cars Ford might>>>>be interested in developing in the future will be the mega dollar>>>>(i.e. highly profitable) supercars like the Ford GT. This could>>>>also lead to the eventual termination of the Mustang. Chevy did it>>>>to the Camaro and Ford could do it to the Mustang.>>>
I don't think the Mustang will be phased out anytime soon, as it's>>>a decent money-maker for the beanies. However, I agree with>>>everything else you guys have said.>>>
The niche for a new Cobra is getting tight. Nobody's going to want>>>to pay big bucks for the same platform that the V6 is riding on>>>(even with mega-horsepower), as it's got its own limitations. If>>>SVT's going to survive, it's got to come out with a new car that>>>will make people drool over it, and they've got to make a profit>>>doing it. >>
IMO, the DEW Cobra has to be about the same level of improvement as>>the DEW GT is over the SN95 GT for about the same price as the SN95>>Cobra.>
Tough bill to fill. I hope they can do it.

I think they can. At least they are starting out with a good chassis.
If they keep the '03-'04 Cobra brakes, improve the handling over the GT,
use the T-56, use the blown 4V 4.6L motor tweaked to 450 hp and design a
decent IRS then I think it will be there. They should be able to keep
the price about the same too. IMO, the '03-'04 Cobra drive train was so
good that they could use it virtually unchanged except for the IRS.
This saves a ton of money on R&D.
Add comment


ZombyWoof 12 March 2005 23:28:40 [ permanent link ]
 On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:48:58 -0500, "Michael Johnson, PE"
<cds@erols.com> wrote something wonderfully witty:
<snip>>>
Tough bill to fill. I hope they can do it.>
I think they can. At least they are starting out with a good chassis. >If they keep the '03-'04 Cobra brakes, improve the handling over the GT, >use the T-56, use the blown 4V 4.6L motor tweaked to 450 hp and design a >decent IRS then I think it will be there. They should be able to keep >the price about the same too. IMO, the '03-'04 Cobra drive train was so >good that they could use it virtually unchanged except for the IRS. >This saves a ton of money on R&D.>
Why not step up to the 5.4 and load that baby up with some more torque
to further differentiate it from the GT? Yeah HP is great, but I've
always loved low-end torque for a good launch. It was one of the
things I simply loved about my Goat and its 455 HO SD. A decent
launch would catapult me half way down the track. I would
consistently post lower MPH trap times yet get great overall ET
compared to the guys with the small blocks. Left a lot of guys
scratching their heads as to why they lost against me when I never
even broke 100 mph but had a trap time of ~ 12 seconds.
--

"Maybe worshiping the cross and the painful death rather
than the well lived life really has distorted our sense
of who we are and what life is about." -- Author unkown
Add comment
Michael Johnson 13 March 2005 00:55:32 [ permanent link ]
 ZombyWoof wrote:> On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:48:58 -0500, "Michael Johnson, PE"> <cds@erols.com> wrote something wonderfully witty:> <snip>>
Tough bill to fill. I hope they can do it.>>
I think they can. At least they are starting out with a good chassis. >>If they keep the '03-'04 Cobra brakes, improve the handling over the GT, >>use the T-56, use the blown 4V 4.6L motor tweaked to 450 hp and design a >>decent IRS then I think it will be there. They should be able to keep >>the price about the same too. IMO, the '03-'04 Cobra drive train was so >>good that they could use it virtually unchanged except for the IRS. >>This saves a ton of money on R&D.>>
Why not step up to the 5.4 and load that baby up with some more torque> to further differentiate it from the GT? Yeah HP is great, but I've> always loved low-end torque for a good launch. It was one of the> things I simply loved about my Goat and its 455 HO SD. A decent> launch would catapult me half way down the track. I would> consistently post lower MPH trap times yet get great overall ET> compared to the guys with the small blocks. Left a lot of guys> scratching their heads as to why they lost against me when I never> even broke 100 mph but had a trap time of ~ 12 seconds.

They already have the low end torque with the supercharged 4.6L engine.
Also, the 5.4L is wide at the top of the engine which makes for a
multitude of packaging problems and is why it is mostly installed into
trucks and SUV's. Plus, Ford can make more than enough hp/torque with
the 4.6L engine. With the hp raised to 450 I would expect it to have
350-400 ft-lbs at 1,500-2,000 rpm's. The '03-'04 Cobras are dipping
into the low 9's in the 1/4 mile with very few engine mods. Ford could
get 450/450 hp/tq from it with little effort.

I love low end torque too. Hence the reason I have a Kenne Bell blower
on my '89 LX making 460 rwtq at 2,500 rpm. It makes for a fun ride.
Add comment


Guest 13 March 2005 02:29:26 [ permanent link ]
 We'll see at the NYIAS but as of December, according to my sources, the
powerplant choice was the 5.4L, 3V, VVT with a Whipple (Lysholm)
huffer. I'm not betting my last dollar, it's Ford after all, but I
think the probability is reasonably high that my information isn't too
far off ;).

Dan
2003 Cobra convertible
With some stuff and things

Add comment
Joe 13 March 2005 05:09:19 [ permanent link ]
 dwtalso@nuail.com wrote in news:1110666566.070­195.23970
@z14g2000cwz.google­groups.com:
We'll see at the NYIAS but as of December, according to my sources,
powerplant choice was the 5.4L, 3V, VVT with a Whipple (Lysholm)> huffer. I'm not betting my last dollar, it's Ford after all, but I> think the probability is reasonably high that my information isn't
far off ;).>
2003 Cobra convertible> With some stuff and things

That's a killer setup. How about the rear? Still a live axle? And
what about the tranny? And what'll it cost - around 45?

Joe
Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies
Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC
Add comment


Michael Johnson 13 March 2005 07:01:17 [ permanent link ]
 dwtalso@nuail.com wrote:> We'll see at the NYIAS but as of December, according to my sources, the> powerplant choice was the 5.4L, 3V, VVT with a Whipple (Lysholm)> huffer. I'm not betting my last dollar, it's Ford after all, but I> think the probability is reasonably high that my information isn't too> far off ;).

I hope you're right but I can't see Ford installing an engine in the
Cobra that rivals the Ford GT's and undercut their future supercar
lineup. I also think that engine would raise the cost of the Cobra to
the mid to high $40k range. Too high IMO.
Add comment
ZombyWoof 13 March 2005 08:04:05 [ permanent link ]
 On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 01:09:19 GMT, Joe <avoidingspam@nospa­m.com> wrote
something wonderfully witty:
dwtalso@nuail.com wrote in news:1110666566.070­195.23970>@z14g2000c­wz.googlegroups.com:­>
We'll see at the NYIAS but as of December, according to my sources, >the>> powerplant choice was the 5.4L, 3V, VVT with a Whipple (Lysholm)>> huffer. I'm not betting my last dollar, it's Ford after all, but I>> think the probability is reasonably high that my information isn't >too>> far off ;).>>
2003 Cobra convertible>> With some stuff and things>
That's a killer setup. How about the rear? Still a live axle? And >what about the tranny? And what'll it cost - around 45?>
I think they need to be real careful about the pricing. With a base
Corvette starting at $43,710 I would think that is the magic number
that they simply cannot surpass. After that number people will begin
to think twice about which of the two vehicles to purchase. Yeah
there will always be fools with more money then sense, and young kids,
but there is a sensitive price point that has to be considered.

Even a base Corvette gives you the new LS2 6.0-liter small-block V8
that produces 400 horsepower and 400 lb-ft of torque which is the
standard engine with either a 6-speed manual or a 5-speed automatic
transmission. The prestige factor and other aspects of the car will
make buy a Cobra, which is still just a Mustang after all, a very
difficult decision if the price differential is not there to support
the decision. I would say that if they bust the 40k barrier sales
will not support production. Especially if it is just for 50 extra
ponies which can be obtained from the Vette quite easily with a few
aftermarket mods.
--

"Maybe worshiping the cross and the painful death rather
than the well lived life really has distorted our sense
of who we are and what life is about." -- Author unkown
Add comment
Joe 13 March 2005 21:30:53 [ permanent link ]
 ZombyWoof <Zomby-Woof@Zappa.n­et> wrote in
news:abe731lr782v2d­3nvj1an1ejp6oemu2rkf­@4ax.com:
On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 01:09:19 GMT, Joe <avoidingspam@nospa­m.com>
wrote> something wonderfully witty:>
dwtalso@nuail.com­ wrote in news:1110666566.070­195.23970>>@z14g2000­cwz.googlegroups.com­:>>
We'll see at the NYIAS but as of December, according to my
sources, >>the>>> powerplant choice was the 5.4L, 3V, VVT with a Whipple (Lysholm)>>> huffer. I'm not betting my last dollar, it's Ford after all, but I>>> think the probability is reasonably high that my information isn't >>too>>> far off ;).>>>
2003 Cobra convertible>>> With some stuff and things>>
That's a killer setup. How about the rear? Still a live axle? And >>what about the tranny? And what'll it cost - around 45?>>
I think they need to be real careful about the pricing. With a base> Corvette starting at $43,710 I would think that is the magic number> that they simply cannot surpass. After that number people will
begin> to think twice about which of the two vehicles to purchase. Yeah> there will always be fools with more money then sense, and young
kids,> but there is a sensitive price point that has to be considered.>
Even a base Corvette gives you the new LS2 6.0-liter small-block V8> that produces 400 horsepower and 400 lb-ft of torque which is the> standard engine with either a 6-speed manual or a 5-speed automatic> transmission. The prestige factor and other aspects of the car will> make buy a Cobra, which is still just a Mustang after all, a very> difficult decision if the price differential is not there to support> the decision. I would say that if they bust the 40k barrier sales> will not support production. Especially if it is just for 50 extra> ponies which can be obtained from the Vette quite easily with a few> aftermarket mods.

Indeed. This is what I was saying in another post. There's a small
window for the Cobra to be successful. If it costs too much, people
will buy cars like the Corvette for less money. If it's too low on
performance, people will opt for a GT and maybe re-chip it.

Joe
Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies
Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC
Add comment
Dan Murphy 14 March 2005 04:26:16 [ permanent link ]
 dwtalso@nuail.com wrote in news:1110666566.070­195.23970
@z14g2000cwz.google­groups.com:
We'll see at the NYIAS but as of December, according to my sources, the> powerplant choice was the 5.4L, 3V, VVT with a Whipple (Lysholm)> huffer. I'm not betting my last dollar, it's Ford after all, but I> think the probability is reasonably high that my information isn't too> far off ;).

That's what I'm thinking. Except the three valves. Why not four? They
should be able to squeeze around 500 horse out of it.

Dan
Add comment
 

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