It's Official, (NY) State votes to increase Thruway tolls

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CarGuru > Driving > It's Official, (NY) State votes to increase Thruway tolls 1 May 2005 06:03:49

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It's Official, (NY) State votes to increase Thruway tolls
Douglas Kerr 26 April 2005 02:27:02
	State votes to increase Thruway tolls New rates to take effect on May 15; increase is first for 641-mile highway since 1988 By MARK JOHNSON, Associated Press Last updated: 12:16 p.m., Monday, April 25, 2005 ALBANY -- The state Thruway Authority voted today to raise cash tolls for most passenger cars by 25 percent and by 35 percent for most commercial truckers beginning May 15. The toll increases on the 641-mile highway will be the first since 1988 and will help fund a $2.6 billion construction program. Increases would be less for users of the E-Z Pass electronic toll-taking system. The increases would be phased in under revisions to the proposal announced Friday. Under the authority plan, the toll cost for a car going from Albany to Buffalo would rise to $10.60, up from $8.45. "There are no free roads,'' said Thruway Executive Director Michael Fleischer after the authority board's vote. "They don't plow themselves, they don't repair themselves. Nobody likes a toll increase. All we can do is tell people this is what we have to do to maintain a safe, efficient road.'' The decision comes as New Yorkers begin to plan vacation travel and when gasoline prices are spiking. Truckers said at a series of public hearings that toll increases will likely be reflected in higher prices for consumer goods. Tolls on the Thruway were supposed to have disappeared in 1996, when the funding for the initial construction was to be paid. But state officials in the 1980s decided to continue tolls, saying drivers, not all taxpayers, should maintain the highway. Read the full article at http://tinyurl.com/cbt2a
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Mike Tantillo 26 April 2005 03:45:24 [ permanent link ]
	You know, unlike most other roads, I feel as if this toll increase is justified, and I'll gladly fork over extra bucks to drive on the Thruway. The Thruway has to be one of the best top quality maintained roadways in the country, and officials should be commended for keeping the road well maintained while keeping tolls steady for 17 years. Douglas Kerr wrote:> State votes to increase Thruway tolls> New rates to take effect on May 15; increase is first for 641-mile highway> since 1988> By MARK JOHNSON, Associated Press> Last updated: 12:16 p.m., Monday, April 25, 2005> ALBANY -- The state Thruway Authority voted today to raise cash tolls most passenger cars by 25 percent and by 35 percent for most commercial> truckers beginning May 15.> The toll increases on the 641-mile highway will be the first since 1988 and> will help fund a $2.6 billion construction program. Increases would be less> for users of the E-Z Pass electronic toll-taking system. The increases would> be phased in under revisions to the proposal announced Friday.> Under the authority plan, the toll cost for a car going from Albany Buffalo would rise to $10.60, up from $8.45.> "There are no free roads,'' said Thruway Executive Director Michael> Fleischer after the authority board's vote. "They don't plow themselves,> they don't repair themselves. Nobody likes a toll increase. All we can do is> tell people this is what we have to do to maintain a safe, efficient road.''> The decision comes as New Yorkers begin to plan vacation travel and when> gasoline prices are spiking. Truckers said at a series of public hearings> that toll increases will likely be reflected in higher prices for consumer> goods.> Tolls on the Thruway were supposed to have disappeared in 1996, when funding for the initial construction was to be paid. But state officials in> the 1980s decided to continue tolls, saying drivers, not all taxpayers,> should maintain the highway.> Read the full article at http://tinyurl.com/cbt2a
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Arif Khokar 26 April 2005 03:49:20 [ permanent link ]
	Mike Tantillo wrote:> You know, unlike most other roads, I feel as if this toll increase is> justified, and I'll gladly fork over extra bucks to drive on the> Thruway. The Thruway has to be one of the best top quality maintained> roadways in the country, I've driven on plenty of high quality, toll free roads in WV, VA, NC, SC, TN, GA, MS and even LA. IME, toll roads are below par (e.g., the WV Turnpike).
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Sherman Cahal 26 April 2005 04:23:22 [ permanent link ]
	Arif Khokar wrote:> Mike Tantillo wrote:> > You know, unlike most other roads, I feel as if this toll increase justified, and I'll gladly fork over extra bucks to drive on the> > Thruway. The Thruway has to be one of the best top quality maintained> > roadways in the country,> I've driven on plenty of high quality, toll free roads in WV, VA, NC, SC, TN, GA, MS and even LA. IME, toll roads are below par (e.g., the Turnpike). Well, the WV TPK also had a faulty concrete pavement when it was constructed from 1976 to 1986. It prematurely cracked and was not properly reinforced, thus the reason you have crappy pavement on 1/2 of the mainline. The NJ TPK ranks as one of the worst on my list. Potholes, numerous patches, etc. and bridges that have not been replaced in 50 or so odd years. NY Thruway is one of the best I have driven on so far though, I agree on that.
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Christopher Blaney 26 April 2005 04:51:49 [ permanent link ]
	"Mike Tantillo" <mjtantillo@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1114472723.953125.113250@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com... You know, unlike most other roads, I feel as if this toll increase is> justified, and I'll gladly fork over extra bucks to drive on the> Thruway. The Thruway has to be one of the best top quality maintained> roadways in the country, and officials should be commended for keeping> the road well maintained while keeping tolls steady for 17 years. I would tend to agree. In the 17-year period (1988-2005), the Pennsylvania Turnpike has had two very large toll increases (1991, 2004) which bring its per-mile rate to 5.7 cents, which is close to the rate for new toll roads. Plus, the PA Turnpike has to invest billions of dollars now to bring the highway up to late-20th century standards of pavement and capacity, never mind 21st. The money it has gotten over the last 20 years have gone to finance several very expensive and low-capacity road projects in western PA. NYS Thruway, on the other hand, is quite a bit less expensive than the PA Tpk on a per-mile basis and it has more highway to maintain (albeit some of the mileage is federally-funded). It's also better maintained and the billions it will spend on improvement will go mainly to increase capacity, as opposed to bring it up to modern standards. If only those PA Tpk engineers in 1938 had thought a little more in advance and given their highway a 60' median instead of a 10' median! --Chris Blaney
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Guest 26 April 2005 04:56:37 [ permanent link ]
	Mr. Cahal: I am not going to resurrect that very hilarious argument you had with Ray Martin last year. It was so funny I fell on the floor laughing. But the NJ Tpk carries huge amounts of traffic. Also very heavy truck traffic. It is not easy or cheap to make the repairs you have cited. But the road does move traffic which is its purpose. What I am going to tell you is this: The NJ Tpk Authority has completely replaced the bridge decks on some of the bridges. most notably the long bridges in Elizabeth. There are 4 seperate bridges 1/2-3/4 mile in length. This was quite a project as I saw it frequently living very close by. One of the things they did was provide by-pass ramps to go from the inner to the outer lanes during lane closures. I also know they have replaced the bridge decks on the Newark Bay Bridge. The big bridges you are probably most familar with over the Hackensack and Passaic Rivers north of Newark, no they have not replaced the decks. I feel they should do it one lane at a time, but obviously they don't agree with me, and I have no say in the matter. They repair those pothole by pothole. So what can I tell you. I am going to add one other thing: for every corrupt politician NJ has I am sure WV can match it and maybe go one up on us. IIRC you have former Governors, Legislators, Cabinet Officers, and State Supreme Court Justices and I am sure others who have served serious jail time. And lets not forget corruption on the local level where in NJ it is much worse then on the state level. I have been to WV many times. I went to WVDOH and the Turnpike offices last summer as well as HNTB in Scott Depot. I knew Ken Kobetsky DOH Chief Traffic Engineer, and I know the traffic engineers who are doing the signing now. WV has the pathologies of poverty like you see in other very poor areas like parts of S Jersey and NYC and I wish you would be honest about it.
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Scott M. Kozel 26 April 2005 06:08:28 [ permanent link ]
	"Christopher Blaney" <cblaney@my-deja.com> wrote:> I would tend to agree. In the 17-year period (1988-2005), the Pennsylvania> Turnpike has had two very large toll increases (1991, 2004) which bring its> per-mile rate to 5.7 cents, which is close to the rate for new toll roads.> Plus, the PA Turnpike has to invest billions of dollars now to bring the> highway up to late-20th century standards of pavement and capacity, never> mind 21st. The money it has gotten over the last 20 years have gone to> finance several very expensive and low-capacity road projects in western PA. The Beaver Valley Expressway 17-mile section of Turnpike that completed an important link in PennDOT's Route 60 expressway, and connects directly to the Turnpike, IME was certainly worth building as a Turnpike extension project. NYS Thruway, on the other hand, is quite a bit less expensive than the PA> Tpk on a per-mile basis and it has more highway to maintain (albeit some of> the mileage is federally-funded). It's also better maintained and the> billions it will spend on improvement will go mainly to increase capacity,> as opposed to bring it up to modern standards. Like any 50-year old highway, any original bridge decks are near the end of their life. The Tappan Zee Bridge poses special challenges to modernize or replace it to meet future traffic needs. If only those PA Tpk engineers in 1938 had thought a little more in advance> and given their highway a 60' median instead of a 10' median! I'm impressed with their "total rebuild" concept that is beginning to be utilized, and which looks like their new standard for rebuilding projects. All pavement, drainage structures, bridges and appurtenances will be replaced, the new highway will have three lanes each way, 12-foot right shoulders, and a paved median with 10-foot inside shoulders and a concrete median barrier. A wider median would be nice, but that cross-section is undoubtedly designed to fit within the original minimum right-of-way width of 200 feet. I'll be quite pleased to see more and more segments of the Turnpike rebuilt to this standard. -- Scott M. Kozel Highway and Transportation History Websites Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com Philadelphia and Delaware Valley http://www.pennways.com
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Guest 26 April 2005 06:10:10 [ permanent link ]
	Whoa Sherman: I am just putting my 2 cents in on what I thought was very funny (Raymond where are you when I need you.) I know very well you live there and I do not think for a minute I know more about WV then you do, I am just stating that I am not completely unknowledgeable about WV. And no, I wasn't even thinking about Byrd, as I consider state and local corruption worse then what might go on at the federal level. And you had Jennings Randolph and Harley Staggers which were the fathers of APD which WV did very well on. WV has done very well considering their population and contributions to the federal highway trust fund. I am sorry, I firmly believe WV to be one of the most corrupt states having all those former officials doing serious jail time. You don't see that in Iowa, or Minnesota, or ND, or Wyoming, or a lot of other states. I AM NOT SAYING FOR A MINUTE NJ IS NOT CORRUPT. But I really believe WV is a lot worse. One can not be poor and honest at the same time? I really wish you would quit dumping on NJ. I know very well you don't like us, but it is like anywhere else, having its good points and bad points. They are going to increase the tolls on the Turnpike and completely rebuild from the PA Tpk extension to 8A where the dual lanes begin. And they will extend the dual lanes to the new PA Tpk ext Del River bridge and to exit 4. So with that complete reconstruction I am sure they don't want to put any money into rebuilding current structures. Now Sherman, one more thing, please get your over-inflated ego under control. No one is attacking your knowledge or intelligence or experience, but I just want to make my points and make known that I have some knowledge in WV.
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Scott M. Kozel 26 April 2005 06:22:34 [ permanent link ]
	"Mike Tantillo" <mjtantillo@yahoo.com> wrote:> You know, unlike most other roads, I feel as if this toll increase is> justified, and I'll gladly fork over extra bucks to drive on the> Thruway. The Thruway has to be one of the best top quality maintained> roadways in the country, and officials should be commended for keeping> the road well maintained while keeping tolls steady for 17 years. It will be either tolls or road use taxes, 641 miles of superhighway that will have be funded with road use taxes if the tolls are removed. That is a lot of highway, and it already has its own direct funding source. The Thruway follows the "spine" that connects the major New York state metropolitan areas, and for high speed through traffic it effectively has no competition, so it will remain the highway of choice in that corridor for intercity traffic. There are parallel toll-free alternatives for people who don't want to pay the toll, but they are not nearly as fast or efficient. -- Scott M. Kozel Highway and Transportation History Websites Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com Philadelphia and Delaware Valley http://www.pennways.com
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Nick C 26 April 2005 06:28:09 [ permanent link ]
	"Mike Tantillo" <mjtantillo@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1114472723.953125.113250@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...> You know, unlike most other roads, I feel as if this toll increase is> justified, and I'll gladly fork over extra bucks to drive on the> Thruway. The Thruway has to be one of the best top quality maintained> roadways in the country, and officials should be commended for keeping> the road well maintained while keeping tolls steady for 17 years.> I'll agree with that. They also know how to ease the burden a bit with the E-ZPass discount. If only the PA Turnpike would do that so it wouldn't cost me $30 round trip from Pittsburgh to Philly.
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Guest 26 April 2005 06:56:12 [ permanent link ]
	I am sorry to say but you have a history on this score. Maybe I am overreacting but some of your posts are very hard on NJ, unfairly so. Like I said, most of the NJ TPK is going to be reconstructed over the next 10-20 years which is not a bad scenerio for a road that is so heavily travelled. Like I also said it moves an awful lot of traffic. Yeah, that is one of my complaints about the power of Senators when a state like WV does so well relative to the wealth and population of the NE.
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Mike Tantillo 26 April 2005 21:45:15 [ permanent link ]
	Christopher Blaney wrote:> "Mike Tantillo" <mjtantillo@yahoo.com> wrote in message> news:1114472723.953125.113250@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...> You know, unlike most other roads, I feel as if this toll increase justified, and I'll gladly fork over extra bucks to drive on the> > Thruway. The Thruway has to be one of the best top quality maintained> > roadways in the country, and officials should be commended for keeping> > the road well maintained while keeping tolls steady for 17 years.> I would tend to agree. In the 17-year period (1988-2005), the Pennsylvania> Turnpike has had two very large toll increases (1991, 2004) which bring its> per-mile rate to 5.7 cents, which is close to the rate for new toll roads.> Plus, the PA Turnpike has to invest billions of dollars now to bring highway up to late-20th century standards of pavement and capacity, never> mind 21st. The money it has gotten over the last 20 years have gone finance several very expensive and low-capacity road projects in western PA.> NYS Thruway, on the other hand, is quite a bit less expensive than the PA> Tpk on a per-mile basis and it has more highway to maintain (albeit some of> the mileage is federally-funded). It's also better maintained and the billions it will spend on improvement will go mainly to increase capacity,> as opposed to bring it up to modern standards.> Let us not forget the HUGE investment the Thruway Authority put into its service plazas in the early 1990's. True, the Pennsylvania and NJ Turnpikes have upgraded theirs as well, but NYTA essentially did "total rebuilds" of its plazas, and did a really fantastic job too. I remmeber the old service plazas as being somewhat old, dirty, and having little variety in food choices, the new ones are definitely a big improvement over the old ones. Remember that the thruway authority does get some form of "royalties" (I think anyway) from service plaza sales, so by making more attractive faclities, and making people less likely to say "I can make it from NY to Albany without having to stop at one of those crappy service plazas", they increase their revenue that way as well, and definitely increase customer satisfaction. If only those PA Tpk engineers in 1938 had thought a little more in advance> and given their highway a 60' median instead of a 10' median! > --Chris Blaney
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Mike Tantillo 26 April 2005 21:46:47 [ permanent link ]
	Scott M. Kozel wrote:> "Christopher Blaney" <cblaney@my-deja.com> wrote:> > I would tend to agree. In the 17-year period (1988-2005), the Pennsylvania> > Turnpike has had two very large toll increases (1991, 2004) which bring its> > per-mile rate to 5.7 cents, which is close to the rate for new toll roads.> > Plus, the PA Turnpike has to invest billions of dollars now to bring the> > highway up to late-20th century standards of pavement and capacity, never> > mind 21st. The money it has gotten over the last 20 years have gone finance several very expensive and low-capacity road projects in western PA.> The Beaver Valley Expressway 17-mile section of Turnpike that completed> an important link in PennDOT's Route 60 expressway, and connects> directly to the Turnpike, IME was certainly worth building as a Turnpike> extension project.> NYS Thruway, on the other hand, is quite a bit less expensive than the PA> > Tpk on a per-mile basis and it has more highway to maintain (albeit some of> > the mileage is federally-funded). It's also better maintained and billions it will spend on improvement will go mainly to increase capacity,> > as opposed to bring it up to modern standards.> Like any 50-year old highway, any original bridge decks are near the of their life. The Tappan Zee Bridge poses special challenges to> modernize or replace it to meet future traffic needs.> If only those PA Tpk engineers in 1938 had thought a little more in advance> > and given their highway a 60' median instead of a 10' median! > I'm impressed with their "total rebuild" concept that is beginning to utilized, and which looks like their new standard for rebuilding> projects. All pavement, drainage structures, bridges and appurtenances> will be replaced, the new highway will have three lanes each way,> 12-foot right shoulders, and a paved median with 10-foot inside> shoulders and a concrete median barrier. A wider median would be nice,> but that cross-section is undoubtedly designed to fit within the> original minimum right-of-way width of 200 feet. I'll be quite pleased> to see more and more segments of the Turnpike rebuilt to this standard.> Its not like they really have a choice....the thing needs a total rebuild! I'm glad they've settled on a "typical" design and construction setup so the process will go smoothly while the rebuilds are taking place. --> Scott M. Kozel Highway and Transportation History Websites> Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com> Philadelphia and Delaware Valley http://www.pennways.com
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Christopher Blaney 27 April 2005 01:27:22 [ permanent link ]
	"Scott M. Kozel" <kozelsm@comcast.net> wrote in message news:426DA29C.639AA5FA@comcast.net... The Beaver Valley Expressway 17-mile section of Turnpike that completed> an important link in PennDOT's Route 60 expressway, and connects> directly to the Turnpike, IME was certainly worth building as a Turnpike> extension project. I'm not questioning the Route 60 project -- filling the gap in that expressway makes sense. However, when I've been on it it seems to be empty all the time. Turnpike 66 and Turnpike 43 seem to be large projects that connect nothing to nowhere, however, at least now. Maybe 50 years from now they will serve their purpose.... It would have been better to spend the money on the 66 and 43 projects towards the total rebuild and six-lane widening from Downingtown to the Delaware River, I think. Then this 2004 toll increase could have made the PA turnpike ten lanes (2-3-3-2) from Norristown to the New Jersey Turnpik, six lanes to Harrisburg, six lanes between Bedford and Breezewood, and six lanes around Pittsburgh. Traffic counts will probably warrant six lanes on the entire PA Turnpike in 30 years time, which means bypassing all of the tunnels or triple tubing them. Like any 50-year old highway, any original bridge decks are near the end> of their life. The Tappan Zee Bridge poses special challenges to> modernize or replace it to meet future traffic needs. In the Tappan Zee bridge case it will be both capacity improvements and structural modernization. I think one of the top plans is for a 12-14 lane dual-deck suspension bridge, which will probably be a real stunner. In that case NYS Thruway should be made 12 lanes in the entire shared I-87/I-287 "beltway" section, even if tolls need to be reinstated at Spring Valley. --Chris Blaney
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Mike Tantillo 27 April 2005 02:21:06 [ permanent link ]
	Scott M. Kozel wrote:> "Mike Tantillo" <mjtantillo@yahoo.com> wrote:> > You know, unlike most other roads, I feel as if this toll increase justified, and I'll gladly fork over extra bucks to drive on the> > Thruway. The Thruway has to be one of the best top quality maintained> > roadways in the country, and officials should be commended for keeping> > the road well maintained while keeping tolls steady for 17 years.> It will be either tolls or road use taxes, 641 miles of superhighway> that will have be funded with road use taxes if the tolls are removed.> That is a lot of highway, and it already has its own direct funding> source. Same story in most states...thats why it seems to be only states with smaller toll roads (Virginia) that remove tolls on a large scale basis, while other states with longer toll roads have resisted the urge. The Thruway follows the "spine" that connects the major New York state> metropolitan areas, and for high speed through traffic it effectively> has no competition, so it will remain the highway of choice in that> corridor for intercity traffic.> There are parallel toll-free alternatives for people who don't want pay the toll, but they are not nearly as fast or efficient.> ehhhhhh, sort of. For short haul trips, yes, no doubt about it, the Thruway is the best route, provided you are going to two destinations along the Thruway. Along the Buffalo to Albany corridor, the Thruway also is the route of choice in most cases. But keep in mind that the Thruway is essentially an L-shaped road. And the shortest route between two points is a straight line, not an L....so in other words, the fastest route from Buffalo to NYC is not the Thruway. Maybe someone from outside of NY might think it is just looking at a map, but ask any New Yorker who knows anything about driving upstate, and very few of them would likely say that they regularly take the Thruway from Buffalo to NYC. The most common route is probably to take the Thruway to NY 63 at Batavia to I-390 to NY 17, and then I-81, I-380, and I-80 to NYC. The main reason for this, from people I know who make the trip often, is that the thruway is just plain old BORING until you get to Utica, and then only slightly better the rest of the way to New York. And then its the tolls that effectively discourage real long haul traffic from driving the length of the Thruway (yes, the per mile rate is still a bargain compared to other roads, but $12 is still a decent chunk of cash). Another popular route to get from Buffalo and Rochester onto I-81 south is to take US 20 and NY 41, cutting from Auburn to Homer (north of Cortland). Obviously Syracuse traffic will just take I-81. Along the Albany to NYC portion of the Thruway, I'd guess that the Thruway probably gets a decent proportion of the traffic, and certainly all traffic destined for points west of the Hudson and New Jersey. But anyone in the know thats heading from Albany to NYC will likely prefer the Taconic to the Thruway....its much more scenic, and likely faster then the Thruway simply because you don't have to deal with the Tappan Zee/GWB combo. But for whatever reason, the Taconic hasn't caught on quite as much as a Thruway alternate to points north as I-81, etc. has caught on as an alternate to points west. Probably since the Taconic is not shown as a freeway on most maps....it has at grade intersections, but most of them are now "right on, right off" only, but no traffic lights and certainly is an access controlled roadway that you can make good time on (most drivers ignore the speed limit, like on just about any other road in NYS with a 55 MPH limit). The main drawback to the Taconic is the segment between I-84 and US 6, which can be quite twisty and curvy....but if you really don't like that, you can always take I-84 to I-684 and then enter NYC from the Hutch or I-95.....this works great if you are going to Long Island, but backtracking to Manhattan probably eats as much time as you'd save if you'd just stayed on the Taconic. Actually, come to think of it, there is a decent (small, but noticable) group of people who prefer US 20 from Buffalo to Albany. I'd venture to guess that its probably slower than the Thruway, but again, more scenic and toll free, and it does save some distance being that it makes a straight run across NYS and bypasses Rochester/Syracuse/Utica completely. Basically, my point is that for long haul traffic, many prefer not to use the Thruway, so I wouldn't automatically say its "the" route of choice. --> Scott M. Kozel Highway and Transportation History Websites> Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com> Philadelphia and Delaware Valley http://www.pennways.com
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Scott M. Kozel 27 April 2005 02:34:03 [ permanent link ]
	"Christopher Blaney" <cblaney@my-deja.com> wrote:> "Scott M. Kozel" <kozelsm@comcast.net> wrote:> Like any 50-year old highway, any original bridge decks are near the end> > of their life. The Tappan Zee Bridge poses special challenges to> > modernize or replace it to meet future traffic needs.> In the Tappan Zee bridge case it will be both capacity improvements and> structural modernization. I think one of the top plans is for a 12-14 lane> dual-deck suspension bridge, which will probably be a real stunner. In that> case NYS Thruway should be made 12 lanes in the entire shared I-87/I-287> "beltway" section, even if tolls need to be reinstated at Spring Valley. The estimates that I've seen for the various study alternatives start at about $1.5 billion for the bridge alone. The bridge crosses over 3 miles of river, and crosses a shipping channel. They are looking at spending a huge amount of funding to address that bridge's needs for the future. -- Scott M. Kozel Highway and Transportation History Websites Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com Philadelphia and Delaware Valley http://www.pennways.com
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Scott M. Kozel 27 April 2005 02:43:38 [ permanent link ]
	"Mike Tantillo" <mjtantillo@yahoo.com> wrote:> Scott M. Kozel wrote:> I'm impressed with their "total rebuild" concept that is beginning to be> > utilized, and which looks like their new standard for rebuilding> > projects. All pavement, drainage structures, bridges and appurtenances> > will be replaced, the new highway will have three lanes each way,> > 12-foot right shoulders, and a paved median with 10-foot inside> > shoulders and a concrete median barrier. A wider median would be nice,> > but that cross-section is undoubtedly designed to fit within the> > original minimum right-of-way width of 200 feet. I'll be quite pleased> > to see more and more segments of the Turnpike rebuilt to this standard.> Its not like they really have a choice....the thing needs a total> rebuild! I'm glad they've settled on a "typical" design and> construction setup so the process will go smoothly while the rebuilds> are taking place. True, but they could do a 'total rebuild' to the existing cross-section with 2 lanes each way and a 10-foot median. Better IMO to make that 3 lanes each way with the 22-foot paved median, to provide plenty of capacity for well into the future. The tunnels will pose a challenge if they are to be made 3 lanes each way, either by boring new 3-lane tubes, by enlarging the existing tubes, or by building a tunnel bypass in open cut. I think that the entire east-west Turnpike ought to be reconstructed to 6 lanes as funding becomes available in the future, and the Northeast Extension could remain 4 lanes north of US-22 at Allentown but IMO ought to be reconstructed to 6 lanes between US-22 and the east-west Turnpike. -- Scott M. Kozel Highway and Transportation History Websites Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com Philadelphia and Delaware Valley http://www.pennways.com
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Scott M. Kozel 27 April 2005 02:59:17 [ permanent link ]
	"Christopher Blaney" <cblaney@my-deja.com> wrote:> "Scott M. Kozel" <kozelsm@comcast.net> wrote:> The Beaver Valley Expressway 17-mile section of Turnpike that completed> > an important link in PennDOT's Route 60 expressway, and connects> > directly to the Turnpike, IME was certainly worth building as a Turnpike> > extension project.> I'm not questioning the Route 60 project -- filling the gap in that> expressway makes sense. However, when I've been on it it seems to be empty> all the time.> Turnpike 66 and Turnpike 43 seem to be large projects that connect nothing> to nowhere, however, at least now. Maybe 50 years from now they will serve> their purpose....> It would have been better to spend the money on the 66 and 43 projects> towards the total rebuild and six-lane widening from Downingtown to the> Delaware River, I think. I'll admit that I would have rather seen those Route 66 and Route 43 Turnpike funds put into upgrading the existing mainline Turnpike. -- Scott M. Kozel Highway and Transportation History Websites Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com Philadelphia and Delaware Valley http://www.pennways.com
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Guest 27 April 2005 03:04:01 [ permanent link ]
	Scott: There is going to be more tunnel abondonments like the one at Laurel Hill. The Tpk Commission has proposed abandoning Allegheny Mtn rerouting the turnpike north through a deep cut. Jeff Kitsko I am sure knows more about this proposal. They are having problems with the original Allegheny Mtn Tunnel and consider the above a better alt. I know there are alot of proposlas for the other tunnels, but again Jeff I am sure knows more about it then I do.
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Scott M. Kozel 27 April 2005 03:27:34 [ permanent link ]
	pigsty1953@yahoo.com wrote:> Scott:> There is going to be more tunnel abondonments like the one at Laurel> Hill. The Tpk Commission has proposed abandoning> Allegheny Mtn rerouting the turnpike north through a deep cut. Jeff> Kitsko I am sure knows more about this proposal.> They are having problems with the original Allegheny Mtn Tunnel and> consider the above a better alt.> I know there are alot of proposlas for the other tunnels, but again> Jeff I am sure knows more about it then I do. I've read about the Allegheny Tunnel bypass project in the past, but I wasn't aware of any upgrade projects being studied on the other tunnels. Each tunnel will have to be evaluated individually to see if the local topography would allow a feasible open cut bypass. It appears that a feasible and affordable alternative has been identified for bypassing the Allegheny Tunnel. 'After two years of careful consideration, the study team recently selected as its preferred alternative the "Brown-Cut," which involves constructing a new, 2.8 mile bypass over the Allegheny Ridge about 610 feet north of the Allegheny Tunnel. With a price tag of $91 million, the Brown Cut is the least costly of the six new-construction alternatives; the other five range in cost from $140-$220 million, with new-tunnel alternatives proving most costly.' 'The Brown Cut, which eliminates sharp curves on the east side of the tunnel, involves carving a 220-foot deep notch in the Allegheny Ridge and constructing two river bridges: a 250-foot and a 1,700-foot span. It would relieve bottlenecks at the existing tunnel, and could decrease the accident rate.' 'The cut would also allow a third truck-climbing lane В— which now terminates just prior to the tunnelВ’s eastern portal В— to continue over the mountainВ’s summit in accordance with the TurnpikeВ’s strict design standards.' 'And it accomplishes all this without a significant increase in elevation.' http://www.paturnpike.com/tools/newsletters/winter2000/page03.htm -- Scott M. Kozel Highway and Transportation History Websites Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com Philadelphia and Delaware Valley http://www.pennways.com
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Guest 27 April 2005 03:44:43 [ permanent link ]
	I have to believe those were very political as are alot of thngs Pray tell, do you ever think we will see 2-3-3-2 in the Philly area considering what they would have to do just in terms of right of way. Look at the problems they have had with the I-95 Tpk ic. And they still haven't started that. Are you thinking of some kind of double decking like in TX?
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Guest 27 April 2005 05:19:06 [ permanent link ]
	Mike Tantillo wrote:> Scott M. Kozel wrote:> > "Mike Tantillo" <mjtantillo@yahoo.com> wrote:> > > You know, unlike most other roads, I feel as if this toll increase> is> > > justified, and I'll gladly fork over extra bucks to drive on the> > > Thruway. The Thruway has to be one of the best top quality> maintained> > > roadways in the country, and officials should be commended for> keeping> > > the road well maintained while keeping tolls steady for 17 years.> > It will be either tolls or road use taxes, 641 miles of superhighway> > that will have be funded with road use taxes if the tolls are> removed.> > That is a lot of highway, and it already has its own direct funding> > source.> Same story in most states...thats why it seems to be only states with> smaller toll roads (Virginia) that remove tolls on a large scale basis,> while other states with longer toll roads have resisted the urge.> The Thruway follows the "spine" that connects the major New York> state> > metropolitan areas, and for high speed through traffic it effectively> > has no competition, so it will remain the highway of choice in that> > corridor for intercity traffic.> > There are parallel toll-free alternatives for people who don't want> to> > pay the toll, but they are not nearly as fast or efficient.> > ehhhhhh, sort of. For short haul trips, yes, no doubt about it, the> Thruway is the best route, provided you are going to two destinations> along the Thruway. Along the Buffalo to Albany corridor, the Thruway> also is the route of choice in most cases. But keep in mind that the> Thruway is essentially an L-shaped road. And the shortest route> between two points is a straight line, not an L....so in other words,> the fastest route from Buffalo to NYC is not the Thruway. Maybe> someone from outside of NY might think it is just looking at a map, ask any New Yorker who knows anything about driving upstate, and very> few of them would likely say that they regularly take the Thruway from> Buffalo to NYC. The most common route is probably to take the Thruway> to NY 63 at Batavia to I-390 to NY 17, and then I-81, I-380, and I-80> to NYC. The main reason for this, from people I know who make the trip> often, is that the thruway is just plain old BORING until you get to> Utica, and then only slightly better the rest of the way to New York.> And then its the tolls that effectively discourage real long haul> traffic from driving the length of the Thruway (yes, the per mile rate> is still a bargain compared to other roads, but $12 is still a decent> chunk of cash). Another popular route to get from Buffalo and> Rochester onto I-81 south is to take US 20 and NY 41, cutting from> Auburn to Homer (north of Cortland). Obviously Syracuse traffic will> just take I-81. Along the Albany to NYC portion of the Thruway, I'd> guess that the Thruway probably gets a decent proportion of the> traffic, and certainly all traffic destined for points west of the> Hudson and New Jersey. But anyone in the know thats heading from> Albany to NYC will likely prefer the Taconic to the Thruway....its much> more scenic, and likely faster then the Thruway simply because you> don't have to deal with the Tappan Zee/GWB combo. But for whatever> reason, the Taconic hasn't caught on quite as much as a Thruway> alternate to points north as I-81, etc. has caught on as an alternate> to points west. Probably since the Taconic is not shown as a freeway> on most maps....it has at grade intersections, but most of them are "right on, right off" only, but no traffic lights and certainly is an> access controlled roadway that you can make good time on (most drivers> ignore the speed limit, like on just about any other road in NYS with 55 MPH limit). The main drawback to the Taconic is the segment between> I-84 and US 6, which can be quite twisty and curvy....but if you really> don't like that, you can always take I-84 to I-684 and then enter NYC> from the Hutch or I-95.....this works great if you are going to Long> Island, but backtracking to Manhattan probably eats as much time as> you'd save if you'd just stayed on the Taconic.> Actually, come to think of it, there is a decent (small, but noticable)> group of people who prefer US 20 from Buffalo to Albany. I'd venture> to guess that its probably slower than the Thruway, but again, more> scenic and toll free, and it does save some distance being that it> makes a straight run across NYS and bypasses Rochester/Syracuse/Utica> completely.> Basically, my point is that for long haul traffic, many prefer not to> use the Thruway, so I wouldn't automatically say its "the" route of> choice. And travelers from the western gateway (Cleveland and midwest) can take I86 to I88 to Albany to get to New England. I've already spoken to truckers using the southern route to avoid tolls, traffic and snow squalls. It'll make even more sense now with the higher tolls.> --> > Scott M. Kozel Highway and Transportation History Websites> > Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com> > Philadelphia and Delaware Valley http://www.pennways.com
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Mike Tantillo 27 April 2005 08:15:19 [ permanent link ]
	daver4...@yahoo.com wrote:> Mike Tantillo wrote:> > Scott M. Kozel wrote:> > > "Mike Tantillo" <mjtantillo@yahoo.com> wrote:> > > > You know, unlike most other roads, I feel as if this toll> increase> > is> > > > justified, and I'll gladly fork over extra bucks to drive on Thruway. The Thruway has to be one of the best top quality> > maintained> > > > roadways in the country, and officials should be commended for> > keeping> > > > the road well maintained while keeping tolls steady for 17 years.> > > It will be either tolls or road use taxes, 641 miles of> superhighway> > > that will have be funded with road use taxes if the tolls are> > removed.> > > That is a lot of highway, and it already has its own direct funding> > > source.> > Same story in most states...thats why it seems to be only states with> > smaller toll roads (Virginia) that remove tolls on a large scale> basis,> > while other states with longer toll roads have resisted the urge.> > The Thruway follows the "spine" that connects the major New York> > state> > > metropolitan areas, and for high speed through traffic it> effectively> > > has no competition, so it will remain the highway of choice in that> > > corridor for intercity traffic.> > > There are parallel toll-free alternatives for people who don't want> > to> > > pay the toll, but they are not nearly as fast or efficient.> > > ehhhhhh, sort of. For short haul trips, yes, no doubt about it, Thruway is the best route, provided you are going to two destinations> > along the Thruway. Along the Buffalo to Albany corridor, the Thruway> > also is the route of choice in most cases. But keep in mind that Thruway is essentially an L-shaped road. And the shortest route> > between two points is a straight line, not an L....so in other words,> > the fastest route from Buffalo to NYC is not the Thruway. Maybe> > someone from outside of NY might think it is just looking at a map,> but> > ask any New Yorker who knows anything about driving upstate, and very> > few of them would likely say that they regularly take the Thruway> from> > Buffalo to NYC. The most common route is probably to take the> Thruway> > to NY 63 at Batavia to I-390 to NY 17, and then I-81, I-380, and I-80> > to NYC. The main reason for this, from people I know who make the> trip> > often, is that the thruway is just plain old BORING until you get Utica, and then only slightly better the rest of the way to New York.> > And then its the tolls that effectively discourage real long haul> > traffic from driving the length of the Thruway (yes, the per mile> rate> > is still a bargain compared to other roads, but $12 is still a decent> > chunk of cash). Another popular route to get from Buffalo and> > Rochester onto I-81 south is to take US 20 and NY 41, cutting from> > Auburn to Homer (north of Cortland). Obviously Syracuse traffic will> > just take I-81. Along the Albany to NYC portion of the Thruway, I'd> > guess that the Thruway probably gets a decent proportion of the> > traffic, and certainly all traffic destined for points west of the> > Hudson and New Jersey. But anyone in the know thats heading from> > Albany to NYC will likely prefer the Taconic to the Thruway....its> much> > more scenic, and likely faster then the Thruway simply because you> > don't have to deal with the Tappan Zee/GWB combo. But for whatever> > reason, the Taconic hasn't caught on quite as much as a Thruway> > alternate to points north as I-81, etc. has caught on as an alternate> > to points west. Probably since the Taconic is not shown as a freeway> > on most maps....it has at grade intersections, but most of them are> now> > "right on, right off" only, but no traffic lights and certainly is access controlled roadway that you can make good time on (most> drivers> > ignore the speed limit, like on just about any other road in NYS with> a> > 55 MPH limit). The main drawback to the Taconic is the segment> between> > I-84 and US 6, which can be quite twisty and curvy....but if you> really> > don't like that, you can always take I-84 to I-684 and then enter from the Hutch or I-95.....this works great if you are going to Long> > Island, but backtracking to Manhattan probably eats as much time as> > you'd save if you'd just stayed on the Taconic.> > Actually, come to think of it, there is a decent (small, but> noticable)> > group of people who prefer US 20 from Buffalo to Albany. I'd venture> > to guess that its probably slower than the Thruway, but again, more> > scenic and toll free, and it does save some distance being that it> > makes a straight run across NYS and bypasses Rochester/Syracuse/Utica> > completely.> > Basically, my point is that for long haul traffic, many prefer not use the Thruway, so I wouldn't automatically say its "the" route of> > choice.> And travelers from the western gateway (Cleveland and midwest) can take> I86 to I88 to Albany to get to New England. I've already spoken to> truckers using the southern route to avoid tolls, traffic and snow> squalls. It'll make even more sense now with the higher tolls. Yes, but unlike most of the other routes I posted, I-86 to I-88 to get from Erie to Albany is clearly longer and not the best/fastest way between those two points (do the math, look on a map, you'll see the southern way is longer by quite a bit). One would take that specifically to bypass the toll, whereas the other routes I posted are actually legit "shortcuts". Though i'd probably take it for the scenery. Interesting to note is that anyone who does take I-86 to I-88 to get to Albany and bypass tolls actually gets a free ride on the Thruway to Exit 24. If they take that and then take the berkshire spur to Mass, they pay probably just a little over a dollar in tolls for the Berkshire Spur. Or if they take the thruway to exit 21A, tolls do not start accumulating on the ticket until you pass exit 24, so you'd only actually pay from 24 to B3. --> > > Scott M. Kozel Highway and Transportation History Websites> > > Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com> > > Philadelphia and Delaware Valley http://www.pennways.com
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Steve 27 April 2005 09:01:56 [ permanent link ]
	Mike Tantillo wrote:> Yes, but unlike most of the other routes I posted, I-86 to I-88 to get> from Erie to Albany is clearly longer and not the best/fastest way> between those two points (do the math, look on a map, you'll see the> southern way is longer by quite a bit). One would take that> specifically to bypass the toll, whereas the other routes I posted are> actually legit "shortcuts". Though i'd probably take it for the> scenery.> It only looks 15-20 miles shorter from my online-map-estimate. Over a distance of about 400 miles, that's not incredible. -- Steve Alpert MIT - Civil Engineering '05, MST '07 (Transportation)
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Scott M. Kozel 28 April 2005 06:21:33 [ permanent link ]
	pigsty1953@yahoo.com wrote:> I have to believe those were very political as are alot of thngs> Pray tell, do you ever think we will see 2-3-3-2 in the Philly area> considering what they would have to do just in terms of right of way.> Look at the problems they have had with the I-95 Tpk ic. And they> still haven't started that. Unless they build more interchanges with local thoroughfares, six lanes should be adequate for long into the future. Between Valley Forge and Bristol, the interchange spacing averages 6 miles, and that tends to substantially reduce the volume of local traffic compared to typical beltways whose interchange spacing averages 2 miles or less. Between Valley Forge and Bristol, there could be 4 or 5 interchanges added with local thoroughfares that currently do not have an interchange with the Turnpike, but that would be pretty expensive and it would ultimately increase traffic to where 8 mainline lanes or more would be needed. -- Scott M. Kozel Highway and Transportation History Websites Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com Philadelphia and Delaware Valley http://www.pennways.com
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Pigsty1953@Yahoo.Com 28 April 2005 07:01:42 [ permanent link ]
	It would have been better to spend the money on the 66 and 43 projects> towards the total rebuild and six-lane widening from Downingtown to Delaware River, I think. Then this 2004 toll increase could have made the PA> turnpike ten lanes (2-3-3-2) from Norristown to the New Jersey Turnpik, six> lanes to Harrisburg, six lanes between Bedford and Breezewood, and six lanes> around Pittsburgh. Traffic counts will probably warrant six lanes on entire PA Turnpike in 30 years time, which means bypassing all of the tunnels or triple tubing them.> Christopher: I responded to this in another part of the thread and it got messed up. Scott saw it but I was hoping you might also. 66 was very political. The only way it could be built was by the PA turnpike comm. I don't know if it was ever really needed but it was part of the original tpk expansion some years ago. 43 is part of the Mon-Fayette Toll Road. I wish Jeff Kitsko were around as this is his stomping grounds and he know alot more about it then I do. But I am sure Scott will also respond when he sees this. Part of Toll 43 was built by PennDOT but again as with 66 only the Turnpike Comm could have any means of doing anything with it. What I really wanted to hear from you was about the 2-3-3-2 idea. Considering the lack of right of way and the difficuties in getting anything done in that area I really don't see it as a possibility.
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Guest 29 April 2005 18:46:04 [ permanent link ]
	Yep, I checked it once and I think it's about 15 miles difference. Not enough to make a huge difference. On the downside, it's quite a bit more hilly. Still, the good news is that most of the speed limits are now up to 65 mph.
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Steve 29 April 2005 18:50:45 [ permanent link ]
	daver40us@yahoo.com wrote: Yep, I checked it once and I think it's about 15 miles difference. Not> enough to make a huge difference. On the downside, it's quite a bit> more hilly. Still, the good news is that most of the speed limits are> now up to 65 mph.> That downside is only for trucks. With modern cruise control, and the cheapest car able to accelerate to 60 in 11 seconds or less (we're talking underpowered bottom-of-line SUV here), any passenger vehicle would be better off with the $6 in accrued cost (40 cents/mile estimate) vs. the over $10 in tolls. -- Steve Alpert MIT - Civil Engineering '05, MST '07 (Transportation)
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Emi M Briet 1 May 2005 05:30:17 [ permanent link ]
	In article <W8ebe.8090$mG3.3685@twister.nyroc.rr.com>, "Douglas Kerr" <dougtone.geo@yahoo.comHORMEL> wrote: State votes to increase Thruway tolls Will the stretch between the I-87/90 exit and I-88 still be free?
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Pigsty1953@Yahoo.Com 1 May 2005 06:03:49 [ permanent link ]
	Emi M Briet wrote:> In article <W8ebe.8090$mG3.3685@twister.nyroc.rr.com>,> "Douglas Kerr" <dougtone.geo@yahoo.comHORMEL> wrote:> State votes to increase Thruway tolls> Will the stretch between the I-87/90 exit and I-88 still be free? I believe so. The Thruway Authority got federal money for widening the section from 25-24 on the condition the section you mention is toll free. I-88 was supposed to parallel NY 7 through Rotterdam, Niskayuna, and Colonie to I-87 to the new section of NY 2. Those towns as well as the city of Schenectady opposed any new expressway contruction so it was killed.
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CarGuru > Driving > It's Official, (NY) State votes to increase Thruway tolls 1 May 2005 06:03:49

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It's Official, (NY) State votes to increase Thruway tolls

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