Re: Gasahol and ethanol?

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CarGuru > Driving > Re: Gasahol and ethanol? 31 March 2005 05:28:59

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Re: Gasahol and ethanol?
John Lansford 26 March 2005 07:10:30
	hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote: I found a 1979 article urging use the gasahol (10% alcohol) and>ethanol (100%) as fuels to reduce dependence on foreign oil and>giving idle farm capacity a productive use.> But 25 years later I'm not aware of those fuels having very use.>My 2000 car manual says it can use gasahol as long as its ethanol,>not methanol. The article says it's easy to make car engines>run on pure ethanol.> Giving our situation today---more dependance than ever on very>high priced foreign oil--it would seem to make sense to use>grain based fuels.> Any explanation? Sure. The oil industry doesn't want to give up any of their revenue to agriculture, so the development of gasohol was discouraged. Only recently has interest in gasohol increased, but the oil industry continues to discourage it, citing potential damage to engines and loss of power. About the only major user of gasohol today are state governments. NCDOT for example has only gasohol in the pumps for vehicles that use gasoline. I've seen little change in performance for those vehicles compared to the ones that use straight gasoline, either. John Lansford, PE -- The unofficial I-26 Construction Webpage: http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/
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Guest 26 March 2005 06:43:02 [ permanent link ]
	I found a 1979 article urging use the gasahol (10% alcohol) and ethanol (100%) as fuels to reduce dependence on foreign oil and giving idle farm capacity a productive use. But 25 years later I'm not aware of those fuels having very use. My 2000 car manual says it can use gasahol as long as its ethanol, not methanol. The article says it's easy to make car engines run on pure ethanol. Giving our situation today---more dependance than ever on very high priced foreign oil--it would seem to make sense to use grain based fuels. Any explanation?
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Marlinspike 26 March 2005 08:04:20 [ permanent link ]
	<hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote in message news:1111804982.513914.309230@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...> Giving our situation today---more dependance than ever on very> high priced foreign oil--it would seem to make sense to use> grain based fuels.> Any explanation? How about this: oil is still cheap for the US. Also, there are two little things called comparative and absolute advantage, and the foreign countries have both in oil production, so who cares if they are foreign? How about we start cutting dependance on foreign textiles and foreign steel and foreign electronics and foreign cars and foreign everything too? NO, cause that would be stupid, morons
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Paul Neubauer 26 March 2005 08:12:45 [ permanent link ]
	On 2005-03-26, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:> I found a 1979 article urging use the gasahol (10% alcohol) and> ethanol (100%) as fuels to reduce dependence on foreign oil and> giving idle farm capacity a productive use.> But 25 years later I'm not aware of those fuels having very use.> My 2000 car manual says it can use gasahol as long as its ethanol,> not methanol. The article says it's easy to make car engines> run on pure ethanol.> Giving our situation today---more dependance than ever on very> high priced foreign oil--it would seem to make sense to use> grain based fuels.> Any explanation? In Minnesota almost all gasoline is, by state law, 10% ethanol. Non-ethanol gasoline is available, but not as easy to find, for older (classic) vehicles and such machinery as cannot take an ethanol blend. There are some E85 pumps with 85% ethanol that Flexible Fuel Vehicles can use - but the price isn't that much lower than the E10 87 octane and the energy density of ethanol is lower than gasoline. To get the power in 1 gallon of straight gasoline, you need to burn 1.4 gallons of ethanol (it's 2 gallons for methanol). Also, part of the reason for a lower price is subsidies for ethanol production - part of the cost is hidden. The difference in energy density is noticable even with E10. I've gotten higher mpg on the return leg of a round trip out of state simply from burning straight gasoline rather than the ethanol blend. Except for the Flexible Fuel Vehicles, cars are limited to 10% ethanol blends as higher amounts can (or at least at one time did) cause damage to hoses and seals and such. Even so, there has been a proposal in Minnesota to go to an E20 blend "as soon as the majority of cars can use it" which doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Methanol is supposedly even nastier on things than ethanol is. Also, methanol would be derived either from petroleum (which would be a pointless extra step in fuel production unless it was to power fuel cells rather than combustion engines) or coal so is not seen as being as nice and environmentally friendly as ethanol. There is one aspect that must be taken into account: How much energy does it take to make the alcohol? If it takes more to make it than the stuff has, then it's a losing proposition. I've seen arguement for both "it takes more" and "it takes less" but so far haven't seen in detail the accounting. -- Paul Neubauer, N9IOG Ned Flat: "Why are you acting like this?" Yakko : "We're not acting. We really are like this." Wakko : "Aren't we lucky?"
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Sherman Cahal 26 March 2005 09:36:07 [ permanent link ]
	John Lansford wrote:> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:> I found a 1979 article urging use the gasahol (10% alcohol) and> >ethanol (100%) as fuels to reduce dependence on foreign oil and> >giving idle farm capacity a productive use.> > But 25 years later I'm not aware of those fuels having very use.> >My 2000 car manual says it can use gasahol as long as its ethanol,> >not methanol. The article says it's easy to make car engines> >run on pure ethanol.> > Giving our situation today---more dependance than ever on very> >high priced foreign oil--it would seem to make sense to use> >grain based fuels.> > Any explanation?> Sure. The oil industry doesn't want to give up any of their revenue agriculture, so the development of gasohol was discouraged. Only> recently has interest in gasohol increased, but the oil industry> continues to discourage it, citing potential damage to engines and> loss of power. Exactly. An ethanol plant was in service in my area for many years, but it was abandoned in the 1990's because it was "not needed" according to the oil barons. For those many years, there were no cases of "damage" and if there was any power loss, then that is just too bad. About the only major user of gasohol today are state governments.> NCDOT for example has only gasohol in the pumps for vehicles that use> gasoline. I've seen little change in performance for those vehicles> compared to the ones that use straight gasoline, either. For everyday driving, a little loss of power is not a big deal. But you won't be hearing any of that from the oilbaron apologists. John Lansford, PE> --> The unofficial I-26 Construction Webpage:> http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/
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Arif Khokar 26 March 2005 11:10:57 [ permanent link ]
	John Lansford wrote: hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote: Giving our situation today---more dependance than ever on very>>high priced foreign oil--it would seem to make sense to use>>grain based fuels.>> Any explanation? Sure. The oil industry doesn't want to give up any of their revenue to> agriculture, so the development of gasohol was discouraged. Only> recently has interest in gasohol increased, but the oil industry> continues to discourage it, citing potential damage to engines and> loss of power. There are other reasons. 1. It takes more energy to produce the ethanol than can be recovered 2. Large Federal subsidies for the production and distribution (thanks to lobbying efforts of Archer Daniels Midland) hide the real cost of a gallon of gasohol.
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John Lansford 26 March 2005 17:51:28 [ permanent link ]
	Arif Khokar <akhokar1234@wvu.edu> wrote: John Lansford wrote:> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:> Giving our situation today---more dependance than ever on very>>>high priced foreign oil--it would seem to make sense to use>>>grain based fuels.>>> Any explanation?> Sure. The oil industry doesn't want to give up any of their revenue to>> agriculture, so the development of gasohol was discouraged. Only>> recently has interest in gasohol increased, but the oil industry>> continues to discourage it, citing potential damage to engines and>> loss of power.> There are other reasons.> 1. It takes more energy to produce the ethanol than can be recovered>2. Large Federal subsidies for the production and distribution (thanks>to lobbying efforts of Archer Daniels Midland) hide the real cost of a>gallon of gasohol. It's like anything else; initial development prices are always high, especially when there's not much of a market for the product. Look at hybrid cars; the first ones were few and far between on the roads and their cost was very high. Now their price is starting to come down as they become more mainstream. John Lansford, PE -- The unofficial I-26 Construction Webpage: http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/
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Rick Powell 26 March 2005 22:11:38 [ permanent link ]
	John Lansford wrote:> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote: About the only major user of gasohol today are state governments.> NCDOT for example has only gasohol in the pumps for vehicles that use> gasoline. I've seen little change in performance for those vehicles> compared to the ones that use straight gasoline, either.> John Lansford, PE> --> The unofficial I-26 Construction Webpage:> http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/ More common in some states than others. In IL, one of every 6 bushels of corn produced goes to ethanol production. However...for ethanol to come close to replacing the 20 mil barrels of oil consumed each day in the US, there would have to be a massive reallocation of agricultural and industrial resources in this country. Rick Powell IDOT District 3
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Rick Powell 26 March 2005 22:20:30 [ permanent link ]
	Specifically, we are at record-breaking volumes of ethanol production in the US. Still, less than 4 billion gallons of ethanol are being produced, while we are consuming over 7 billion 42-gallon barrels of oil every year. Rick Powell IDOT District 3
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Guest 27 March 2005 08:15:05 [ permanent link ]
	Paul Neubauer wrote: In Minnesota almost all gasoline is, by state law, 10% ethanol.> Non-ethanol gasoline is available, but not as easy to find, for> older (classic) vehicles and such machinery as cannot take an> ethanol blend. Yes, anything more than 10% requires different vehicle design. There are some E85 pumps with 85% ethanol that Flexible Fuel> Vehicles can use - but the price isn't that much lower than the> E10 87 octane and the energy density of ethanol is lower than> gasoline. To get the power in 1 gallon of straight gasoline, you> need to burn 1.4 gallons of ethanol (it's 2 gallons for methanol). The 1979 article said engines specifically designed (not a major change--higher compression) to run on straight ethanol would run well. But apparently nobody ever came out with such engines, at least in quantity. Methanol is supposedly even nastier on things> than ethanol is. I don't know the difference, but apparently both the article and my owner's manual are for ethanol, not methanol. There is one aspect that must be taken into account: How much> energy does it take to make the alcohol? Good point. Obviously it has to be positive. But making gasoline requires energy as well, as well as energy to ship raw oil around the world. There is the subsidy issue, as mentioned. But if this was in high production, economies of scale would likely reduce the cost. There is also the subsidy to farmers not to grow stuff that might be reduced. (I don't know if we still have surplus grain as in the past.) How do we put a cost on balance of payments and Middle East politics? It seems that every year we import more and more oil and paying more and more for it. If some of the tankers could be used to export enthanol from the US to say Europe, it would be good for the economy.
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John S 28 March 2005 03:43:46 [ permanent link ]
	John Lansford wrote: hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:> I found a 1979 article urging use the gasahol (10% alcohol) and> >ethanol (100%) as fuels to reduce dependence on foreign oil and> >giving idle farm capacity a productive use.> > But 25 years later I'm not aware of those fuels having very use.> >My 2000 car manual says it can use gasahol as long as its ethanol,> >not methanol. The article says it's easy to make car engines> >run on pure ethanol.> > Giving our situation today---more dependance than ever on very> >high priced foreign oil--it would seem to make sense to use> >grain based fuels.> > Any explanation?> Sure. The oil industry doesn't want to give up any of their revenue to> agriculture, so the development of gasohol was discouraged. Only> recently has interest in gasohol increased, but the oil industry> continues to discourage it, citing potential damage to engines and> loss of power.> That's kind of a hard argument to support, given the massive amounts of ethanol subsidies the government is providing, and this almost certainly rise substantially in the near future concurrent with MTBE phase-out. Generally the volume of ethanol (say 10%) is also exempt for motor fuel tax. Ethanol production is quite mature, yet subsidies continue to increase. Note that ethanol contains less energy per mass and volume then gasoline, so a full tank won't get you as far as a full tank of gasoline. Many engines will run ok on higher amounts of ethanol (above 10%) with proper precautions in their design. However starting with high % of ethanol in anything but a relatively warm climate becomes a real problem. One solution is using gasoline just for starting and warming up, then switching to ethanol, with of course the necessary storage and plumbing considerations. Also, ethanol will always contain some water, since 100% alcohol is not possible.
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Rj 28 March 2005 09:14:46 [ permanent link ]
	John Lansford <jlnsford@bellsouth.net> wrote: Sure. The oil industry doesn't want to give up any of their revenue to> agriculture, so the development of gasohol was discouraged. Guess you haven't driven in the midwestern states recently. -- RJ
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Guest 28 March 2005 21:47:08 [ permanent link ]
	John S wrote: That's kind of a hard argument to support, given the massive amounts ethanol subsidies the government is providing, and this almost certainly> rise substantially in the near future concurrent with MTBE phase-out. Could you elaborate on the "massive amounts" of subsidy? How much farm subsidy is paid out for farmers NOT to grow stuff? How much grain is wasting away in govt warehouses or left besides silos where there is no room for it? Tougher to quantify is the impact of the lopsided balance of payments on our economy. When the dollar is worth less overseas, imports cost us more. When we flood overseas with our money, they might use it ways not necessarily in the way we might want, that is, foreign interests may have more control over our economy that we'd like. Again, this is tough to quantify. But our oil imports keep going up and the money to buy them keeps getting higher and higher. There's also the reality of negative politics we must deal with. President Bush Sr came out and said the Kuwait Gulf War was to protect oil supplies. War costs money. We also must ask what the ultimate result is from the massive money the west gives to Saudi Arabia. Does that create problems in that country that come back to haunt us (like paying for schools of radicalism)? Again, this is hard to quantify, but still an issue. Note that ethanol contains less energy per mass and volume then> gasoline, so a full tank won't get you as far as a full tank of gasoline. From what I've read pure ethanol is high octane and works well in an engine specifically designed for (high compression). Does ethanol burn cleaner than gasoline in terms of output pollutants? The impression I get is that _quantity production_ to take advtg of economies of scale has never occured for ethanol fuel creation or vehicles designed to use it.
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Arif Khokar 28 March 2005 23:19:01 [ permanent link ]
	John Lansford wrote: hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote: Giving our situation today---more dependance than ever on very>>high priced foreign oil--it would seem to make sense to use>>grain based fuels.>> Any explanation? Sure. The oil industry doesn't want to give up any of their revenue to> agriculture, so the development of gasohol was discouraged. Only> recently has interest in gasohol increased, but the oil industry> continues to discourage it, citing potential damage to engines and> loss of power. There are other reasons. 1. It takes more energy to produce the ethanol than can be recovered 2. Large Federal subsidies for the production and distribution (thanks to lobbying efforts of Archer Daniels Midland) hide the real cost of a gallon of gasohol.
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Arif Khokar 28 March 2005 23:19:02 [ permanent link ]
	John Lansford wrote: Arif Khokar <akhokar1234@wvu.edu> wrote: 1. It takes more energy to produce the ethanol than can be recovered It's like anything else; initial development prices are always high,> especially when there's not much of a market for the product. That still doesn't address the problem of the necessary amount of energy required to manufacture the substance.
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John Lansford 29 March 2005 02:07:11 [ permanent link ]
	Arif Khokar <akhokar1234@wvu.edu> wrote: John Lansford wrote:> Arif Khokar <akhokar1234@wvu.edu> wrote:> 1. It takes more energy to produce the ethanol than can be recovered> It's like anything else; initial development prices are always high,>> especially when there's not much of a market for the product.> That still doesn't address the problem of the necessary amount of energy >required to manufacture the substance. Gasoline doesn't exactly require less energy to make than it releases either, you know. John Lansford, PE -- The unofficial I-26 Construction Webpage: http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/
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John Lansford 29 March 2005 02:08:45 [ permanent link ]
	Arif Khokar <akhokar1234@wvu.edu> wrote: John Lansford wrote:> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:> Giving our situation today---more dependance than ever on very>>>high priced foreign oil--it would seem to make sense to use>>>grain based fuels.>>> Any explanation?> Sure. The oil industry doesn't want to give up any of their revenue to>> agriculture, so the development of gasohol was discouraged. Only>> recently has interest in gasohol increased, but the oil industry>> continues to discourage it, citing potential damage to engines and>> loss of power.> There are other reasons.> 1. It takes more energy to produce the ethanol than can be recovered>2. Large Federal subsidies for the production and distribution (thanks >to lobbying efforts of Archer Daniels Midland) hide the real cost of a >gallon of gasohol. I never said that gasohol would be available at $1/gallon, now did I? At some point the cost of gasohol (or LNG or whatever) will equal the cost of a gallon of gasoline, which will make it profitable to begin manufacturing and distribution. By some accounts LNG is already at that point. John Lansford, PE -- The unofficial I-26 Construction Webpage: http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/
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Michael Moroney 29 March 2005 03:22:59 [ permanent link ]
	John Lansford <jlnsford@bellsouth.net> writes: I never said that gasohol would be available at $1/gallon, now did I?>At some point the cost of gasohol (or LNG or whatever) will equal the>cost of a gallon of gasoline, which will make it profitable to begin>manufacturing and distribution. By some accounts LNG is already at>that point. Any idea what the current price of fuel-grade ethanol is in bulk? (I know subsidies will artificially lower its price) Corn, from which ethanol is made, is quite cheap. -- -Mike
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Rj 29 March 2005 05:08:10 [ permanent link ]
	John Lansford <jlnsford@bellsouth.net> wrote: Arif Khokar <akhokar1234@wvu.edu> wrote:> John Lansford wrote:> > Arif Khokar <akhokar1234@wvu.edu> wrote:> > 1. It takes more energy to produce the ethanol than can be recovered> > It's like anything else; initial development prices are always high,> >> especially when there's not much of a market for the product.> > That still doesn't address the problem of the necessary amount of energy> >required to manufacture the substance.> Gasoline doesn't exactly require less energy to make than it releases> either, you know. If there is a deficit in petroleum energy, what is the source of the energy that makes up that deficit? -- RJ
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John S 29 March 2005 06:59:35 [ permanent link ]
	hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote: John S wrote:> That's kind of a hard argument to support, given the massive amounts> of> > ethanol subsidies the government is providing, and this almost> certainly> > rise substantially in the near future concurrent with MTBE phase-out.> Could you elaborate on the "massive amounts" of subsidy?> How much farm subsidy is paid out for farmers NOT to grow stuff?> How much grain is wasting away in govt warehouses or left besides> silos where there is no room for it?> Tougher to quantify is the impact of the lopsided balance of> payments on our economy. When the dollar is worth less overseas,> imports cost us more. When we flood overseas with our money, they> might use it ways not necessarily in the way we might want, that is,> foreign interests may have more control over our economy that we'd> like.> Again, this is tough to quantify. But our oil imports keep going up> and the money to buy them keeps getting higher and higher.> There's also the reality of negative politics we must deal with.> President Bush Sr came out and said the Kuwait Gulf War was to> protect oil supplies. War costs money. We also must ask what> the ultimate result is from the massive money the west gives to> Saudi Arabia. Does that create problems in that country that> come back to haunt us (like paying for schools of radicalism)?> Again, this is hard to quantify, but still an issue.> Note that ethanol contains less energy per mass and volume then> > gasoline, so a full tank won't get you as far as a full tank of> gasoline.> From what I've read pure ethanol is high octane and works well in> an engine specifically designed for (high compression).> Does ethanol burn cleaner than gasoline in terms of output pollutants?> The impression I get is that _quantity production_ to take advtg> of economies of scale has never occured for ethanol fuel creation> or vehicles designed to use it. Oil is generally priced in dollars on the international market. Ethanol subsidies (federal) are now a billion dollars a year now, and growing. Some states (e.g. Minnesota) offer their own subsidies. In addition, ethanol is not subject to federal motor fuels tax. It is still charged to consumers. About 60% of the subsidies go to one big company, ADM---the very same company that was caught after a massive price fixing scandal in the 1990s. Ethanol burns cleaner in terms of carbon monoxide, but increases volatile hydrocarbon pollution properties of gasoline. Carbon monoxide is very bad in enclosed areas, but less so outside. Hydrocarbon pollution is a major source of smog, which is bad for health.
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Paul D. DeRocco 30 March 2005 07:12:05 [ permanent link ]
	"John Lansford" <jlnsford@bellsouth.net> wrote> Gasoline doesn't exactly require less energy to make than it releases> either, you know. It most certainly does. -- Ciao, Paul D. DeRocco Paul mailtoderocco@ix.netcom.com
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Gary V 31 March 2005 00:40:33 [ permanent link ]
	Both methanol and ethanol are corrosive to engine parts, methanol much moreso. 10% Ethanol is added to much of the gasoline on the market today, to increase the oxygen content of the fuel. This is part of the so-called "reformulated gasoline" needed in some non-attainment areas. Ethanol contains less potential energy than an equivalent weight/volume of gasoline. Burning it in engines would result in less power and far lower fuel economy. In general it does burn cleaner, but without controls produces more nitrogen oxides (NOx). 15% gasoline is blended with the ethanol as a stabilizer, creating "E85". Many auto manufacturers make engines capable of running on E85. This was done for CAFE purposes, as a credit of up to 1.2 mpg is allowed for these alternative "flex" fuels, as they are known. It doesn't matter whether or not the public actually uses the alternative fuel, just that the manufacturers make cars capable of burning the fuel. These credits for "flex" fuel will run out in a few years, although dedicated alternative fuel vehicles will continue to get CAFE credits. (The purpose of CAFE is to control the consumption of gasoline / imported oil. It is not a pollution / global warming regulation - although many politicians would like to make it so.) Ethanol is currently more expensive to produce than importing oil and refining it to gasoline. It exists on the commercial market only where it is subsidized, or if required for fleets. I have driven an flex-fuel minivan for years, but never found a station selling E85.
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Rick Powell 31 March 2005 04:10:27 [ permanent link ]
	Gary V wrote: I have driven an> flex-fuel minivan for years, but never found a station selling E85. Here's a place where E85 fuel stations can be found: www.e85fuel.com/database/search.php MN has a lot; many states have none. Rick Powell IDOT District 3
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Jay Maynard 31 March 2005 05:28:59 [ permanent link ]
	On 2005-03-31, Rick Powell <wrkapowell@ivnet.com> wrote:> Here's a place where E85 fuel stations can be found:> www.e85fuel.com/database/search.php> MN has a lot; many states have none. There's even one in Fairmont, which is somewhat unusual. However, they don't sell it at enough of a discount to make it worthwhile buying...only about 10% when I drove by there a few minutes ago. E85 has 75% of the energy, roughly, as 100% gasoline. Therefore, it should be sold at that same fraction of the price in order to make the decision economically justifiable. When the pice of unleaded (okkay, it's in Minnesota, so it's really E10) is $2.09/gallon, and E85 is $1.89/gallon, it's a terrible deal. I read a story in one of the Twin Cities papers that a guy was running 50/50 E85 and E10 in his 1995 Plymouth Voyager. No ill effects reported, but he's getting ripped off pretty badly.
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CarGuru > Driving > Re: Gasahol and ethanol? 31 March 2005 05:28:59

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Re: Gasahol and ethanol?

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