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Re: Metrication of Irish road signs
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CarGuru > Driving > Re: Metrication of Irish road signs 7 March 2005 16:36:17
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Re: Metrication of Irish road signs

Markus Kuhn 3 March 2005 16:14:30
 "Michael G. Koerner" <mgk920@dataex.com>­ writes:
|> k_flynn@lycos.com wrote:
|> > Must the metric speed be posted in multiples of 10 or could they
|> > consider posting the former 40 MPH areas as 65 KPH, which is
|> > essentially the same?
|>
|> This is addressed in the USA Federal MUTCD. If a road in the USA is
|> posted in km/h, it must be in a multiple of 10.

The only time I have ever seen anywhere a km/h speed limit that was
not a multiple of 10 was "5 km/h", which means "gentle walking speed".
It is sometimes used (along with "10 km/h" = "brisk walking speed")
in what is primarily meant to be a pedestrian zone.

Restricting speed limits to multiples of 10 has some
psychological advantages. The trailing zero of all figures becomes
redundant and will quickly be treated by the mind as just a part
of the unit notation (as in "X0 km/h") that needs no attention. The
actual crucial information is that way reduced to a (mostly)
single-digit number, which is faster to recognize and compare.

Increments of 10 km/h (= 6 MPH) seem sufficiently small
to make intermediate road speed limits unnecessary. 10 MPH (16 km/h)
might be somewhat too big an increment, which is why you find
common speed limits such as 55 MPH or 65 MPH in the few countries
that still use that unit. With these, you loose the advantage of
the last digit being essentially redundant. It is surprising then, that
MPH has caught on especially in the US, where people are otherwise
so keen on units that lead to single-digit figures in practical use.

By the way: There used to be a Swedish mile, which was 10 km.
Swedish miles per hour would be an ideal unit for road speed,
as all the relevant speeds are then numbers from 1 to 12.

May be, when one day the two currently widely used miles of 1609 m
and 1852 m have fallen out of use, the Swedish meaning of the word
mile (10 000 m) could be revived as a very convenient informal
road-traffic unit?

Markus

Add comment
Markus Kuhn 3 March 2005 16:36:56 [ permanent link ]
 Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@Syste­maticSW.Invalid> writes:
|> Google km/h kph
|>
|> US 5030k 725k
|> UK 471k 125k
|> CA 190k 29k
|> AU 150k 27k5
|> NZ 16k 9k
|> IN 6k 2k

Looks like a result that you may want to make some
dictionary editors aware of ...

Add comment
Kurt F 3 March 2005 17:32:47 [ permanent link ]
 "Markus Kuhn" <n05W09+mgk25@viter­bi.cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:d06v36$4hv$1@g­emini.csx.cam.ac.uk.­..
snip> By the way: There used to be a Swedish mile, which was 10 km.> Swedish miles per hour would be an ideal unit for road speed,> as all the relevant speeds are then numbers from 1 to 12.

The Swedish "mil" is still in use, although it is becoming more and more
common to use km. All road signs show distances in km, but when talking you
might round 67 km to 7 mil.

Kurt F


Add comment
Erik Naggum 3 March 2005 21:04:50 [ permanent link ]
 * Markus Kuhn @2005-03-03 12:14Z> By the way: There used to be a Swedish mile, which was 10 km.> Swedish miles per hour would be an ideal unit for road speed,> as all the relevant speeds are then numbers from 1 to 12.

Norwegian and Swedish train tracks have speed limits posted just such a
10-km/h unit. I have seen speed signs as low as «3» and as high as «25».
Incidentally, various sources claim that there is an ISO prefix for
10'000: «myria», abbreviated «my». Can anyone who has access to the
actual standards please confirm this? (It is not in the FAQ.)

Erik Naggum @2005-062
--
*** Please direct private communication to <nocebo(at)acm.org>­. ***
Act from reason, and failure makes you rethink and study harder;
act from faith, and failure makes you blame someone and push harder.
In a fight against something, the fight has value, victory has none;
in a fight for something, the fight is a loss, victory merely relief.
Add comment
Julian Bradfield 3 March 2005 21:56:35 [ permanent link ]
 In article <jmsjf2-nej.ln1@new­s.naggum.no>,
Erik Naggum <nocebo.at.acm.org>­ wrote:
Incidentally, various sources claim that there is an ISO prefix for >10'000: «myria», abbreviated «my». Can anyone who has access to the >actual standards please confirm this? (It is not in the FAQ.)

That would be surprising, since myria abbreviated ma was part of the
proto-SI system for a couple of centuries. Why would ISO have chosen a
different abbreviation?
Add comment
Erik Naggum 3 March 2005 23:57:47 [ permanent link ]
 * Julian Bradfield @2005-03-03 17:56Z> That would be surprising, since myria abbreviated ma was part of the > proto-SI system for a couple of centuries. Why would ISO have chosen a > different abbreviation?

I have never seen «myria» abbreviated as «ma». Do you have any reference
for this claim? (Search for «myriameter» and find «mym» easily.)

Erik Naggum @2005-062
--
*** Please direct private communication to <nocebo(at)acm.org>­. ***
Act from reason, and failure makes you rethink and study harder;
act from faith, and failure makes you blame someone and push harder.
In a fight against something, the fight has value, victory has none;
in a fight for something, the fight is a loss, victory merely relief.
Add comment
Klaus von der Heyde 4 March 2005 02:49:01 [ permanent link ]
 Markus Kuhn wrote:
Restricting speed limits to multiples of 10 has some> psychological advantages. The trailing zero of all figures becomes> redundant

Railways in many countries deem the zero redundant and omit it in
their signal systems.
By the way: There used to be a Swedish mile, which was 10 km.> Swedish miles per hour would be an ideal unit for road speed,> as all the relevant speeds are then numbers from 1 to 12.

We do not want to introduce more units, do we? :)­

Klaus

Add comment
Gene Nygaard 4 March 2005 20:45:05 [ permanent link ]
 On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 17:04:50 +0000, Erik Naggum <erik@naggum.no>
wrote:
* Markus Kuhn @2005-03-03 12:14Z>> By the way: There used to be a Swedish mile, which was 10 km.>> Swedish miles per hour would be an ideal unit for road speed,>> as all the relevant speeds are then numbers from 1 to 12.>
Norwegian and Swedish train tracks have speed limits posted just such a >10-km/h unit. I have seen speed signs as low as «3» and as high as «25».>Incidentall­y, various sources claim that there is an ISO prefix for >10'000: «myria», abbreviated «my». Can anyone who has access to the >actual standards please confirm this? (It is not in the FAQ.)>
Erik Naggum @2005-062

Myria- (and the even less common myrio- for 0.0001) were thrown out by
not being included in SI when it was introduced in 1960, along with
double prefixes such as hectokilometers and micromicrofarads and
micromillimeters and millimicrons.

Now if the CGPM would come to their senses and consign the others that
are not powers of 1000 to the same fate, we'd all be better off.



Gene Nygaard
Add comment
Gene Nygaard 4 March 2005 20:49:23 [ permanent link ]
 On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 10:45:05 -0600, Gene Nygaard <gnygaard@nccray.co­m>
wrote:
On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 17:04:50 +0000, Erik Naggum <erik@naggum.no>>wr­ote:>
* Markus Kuhn @2005-03-03 12:14Z>>> By the way: There used to be a Swedish mile, which was 10 km.>>> Swedish miles per hour would be an ideal unit for road speed,>>> as all the relevant speeds are then numbers from 1 to 12.>>
Norwegian and Swedish train tracks have speed limits posted just such a >>10-km/h unit. I have seen speed signs as low as «3» and as high as «25».>>Incidental­ly, various sources claim that there is an ISO prefix for >>10'000: «myria», abbreviated «my». Can anyone who has access to the >>actual standards please confirm this? (It is not in the FAQ.)>>
Erik Naggum @2005-062>
Myria- (and the even less common myrio- for 0.0001) were thrown out by>not being included in SI when it was introduced in 1960, along with>double prefixes such as hectokilometers and micromicrofarads and>micromillimeter­s and millimicrons.>
Now if the CGPM would come to their senses and consign the others that>are not powers of 1000 to the same fate, we'd all be better off.

I forgot to mention that myria- had been around for a long, long time
before then. It is included in the list of prefixes in the U.S. Act
of July 28, 1866, for example (still codified in the United States
Code at 15 U.S.C. sec. 205, and I suspect it actually goes back to the
1790s.


Gene Nygaard
Add comment
Christoph Paeper 7 March 2005 05:06:19 [ permanent link ]
 *Julian Bradfield* <jcb@inf.ed.ac.uk>:­> Erik Naggum <nocebo.at.acm.org>­ wrote:>
Incidentally, various sources claim that there is an ISO prefix

It may be (or: have been) metric, but certainly not ISO (nor SI).
for 10'000: «myria», abbreviated «my».>
That would be surprising, since myria abbreviated ma was part of the> proto-SI system for a couple of centuries.

How do you define "a couple of"? IIR-my-readings-C and if they were infact
correct, it lasted not even a whole century, starting at around 1800.
Why would ISO have chosen a different abbreviation?

A disadvantage of 'my' would be, that this is the name of the twelfth
letter of the Greek alphabet (Μ, μ) in several languages (excluding
English where it is 'mu'), so it would look like a work-around for the
symbol of 'micro' (µ) to many people.

--
The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
"The Universe, as has been observed before, is an unsettlingly big place,
a fact which for the sake of a quiet life most people tend to ignore."
Add comment
Gene Nygaard 7 March 2005 09:37:38 [ permanent link ]
 On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 02:06:19 +0100, Christoph Paeper
<christoph.paeper@n­urfuerspam.de> wrote:
*Julian Bradfield* <jcb@inf.ed.ac.uk>:­>> Erik Naggum <nocebo.at.acm.org>­ wrote:>>
Incidentally, various sources claim that there is an ISO prefix>
It may be (or: have been) metric, but certainly not ISO (nor SI).

Not SI only applies after 1960, when SI was introduced. There are
lots of unis that are not SI which have been recognized by the Meter
Convention organizations (CGPM, CIPM, and BIPM).
for 10'000: «myria», abbreviated «my».>>
That would be surprising, since myria abbreviated ma was part of the>> proto-SI system for a couple of centuries.>
How do you define "a couple of"? IIR-my-readings-C and if they were infact >correct, it lasted not even a whole century, starting at around 1800.

What about that CIPM recognition in 1905, with symbol "M"?>
Why would ISO have chosen a different abbreviation?>
A disadvantage of 'my' would be, that this is the name of the twelfth >letter of the Greek alphabet (?, ?) in several languages (excluding >English where it is 'mu'), so it would look like a work-around for the >symbol of 'micro' (µ) to many people.

That's an anachronistic concern. Why would anybody worry about that,
when mu as a symbol for either micron or the prefix micro is a 20th
century invention, or at the very least not widely used before the
20th century?

Gene Nygaard
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CarGuru > Driving > Re: Metrication of Irish road signs 7 March 2005 16:36:17
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