Detroit car makers really need to get back to the basics. Their>problems are not with the workers or the unions as they often seem to>make it out to be.

Their problem is in their hedious corporate>thinking.­

Look at Renault, france is a country with considerable social>responsibili­ty, yet Renault has wonderful designs that are smart,>economical, and very, very safe

Renault used to sell cars in the US.>

If they sold French cars here, I'd rather have Peugot or Citroen.>

Renault used to sell cars in the US.>

If they sold French cars here, I'd rather have Peugot or Citroen.

And those cars were the ones that got Renault the bad reputation.>

Harry K>

Bad design of cars and factories and low sales add even more to the> cost of production.

U.S. consumer interest in SUVs dropped sharply in April as people> turned to more fuel-efficient vehicles. Truck-based SUVs have become a> traditional profit center for U.S. automakers while fuel savers have> long been a strength of Japanese automakers, such as Toyota Motor> Corp. and Nissan Motor Co.>

On Thu, 5 May 2005 03:28:09 -0400, "Magnulus" <magnulus@bellsouth­.net>>wrote:>

I had a French car once - all four tires went down on me.>

All I know about Peugots and Citroens is from watching rally races and> playing rally games . Still, they look like good cars. And I do remember> as a kid they had Renault in the US.

"SoCalMike" <mikein562athotmail­@hotmail.com> wrote in message> news:gLCdnbg1kcL_We­ffRVn-sw@comcast.com­...>> the "le car" wasnt necessarily bad, and the "alliance" won a few awards>> in its time. a cow orker had a pug 505sti (i think) and it was an>> interesting car. quirky. i remember he had to get tires special ordered.>

All I know about Peugots and Citroens is from watching rally races and> playing rally games .

Still, they look like good cars.

And I do remember as a kid they had Renault in the US.

We had a Citroen when my father was stationed in w. germany. Fine car, > reliable, autobahn-fast, with a bitchin' hydraulic-pneumatic­ > suspension that let you select ride height. (helpful for those alpine > blizzards. This squawking about French car quality is little more than > frog-bashing.

GM is so stupid that it once announced record bonuses for its>executives just days before demanding concessions from the union>employees. It hasn't gotten any smarter since then.

My Hyundai Accent 2003 just got 40mpg on a 280 mile trip at 70-75 mph for> much of the trip. It has a gas engine only. Accent has a 10yr, 100,000> mile warranty.>

The Prius has about 24 battery cells which are covered by an 8 yr warranty> and cost about $200USD per cell. IIRC, the Prius claims about 60 mpg for> the highway.>

At about $12k for the Accent vs about $27k for the Prius, some Prius buyers> are not too smart.

On Fri, 6 May 2005, Sam wrote:>

why does everyone think it's ONLY about money saved?> what about gasoline saved?> we can make more money, we can't make more oil...>

GM is so stupid that it once announced record bonuses for its> executives just days before demanding concessions from the union> employees. It hasn't gotten any smarter since then.>

On Fri, 6 May 2005, Sam wrote:>

why does everyone think it's ONLY about money saved?> what about gasoline saved?

we can make more money, we can't make more oil...

Yeah, but what if TBO doesn't hit in your lifetime?­

U.S. consumer interest in SUVs dropped sharply in April as people> turned to more fuel-efficient vehicles.

We sure seem to be. We discover more new oil every year than what we> use.

DTJ wrote:>> On Fri, 6 May 2005 10:07:27 -0500, barbie gee <oneo@sghcrg.pbz> wrote:>>

Nope, last I heard we are only finding one new barrel for every two we use.

1987 - Ritch "For I Am Canyon Man" Shydner. You owe it to him.

On Fri, 06 May 2005 19:16:13 -0400, Mike Wilcox><spamspamspa­m@montypython.org> wrote:>

Actually, I recently heard about some new oil pocket discovery in>Idaho that is apparently pretty large. Of course, just when the>details would be useful they escape me... ;)

Jon von Leipzig wrote:>> Headline shudda been:>> "Millions of SUV owners stand pat">

for now. and how many of those millions own, vs lease? the ones locked > into a lease arent going anywhere for a couple years. theyll be paying > and paying for the next 2+ years, and if they have any common sense, > will trade down when the term is up.

In other words, we face a major global energy shortage for the prime>fuel of our entire economy within about seven years.

DTJ wrote:> > On Fri, 6 May 2005 10:07:27 -0500, barbie gee <oneo@sghcrg.pbz> wrote:> >

Nope, last I heard we are only finding one new barrel for every two we use.

In article <oUSee.28308$3U.124­1273@news20.bellglob­al.com>,> Mike Wilcox <spamspamspam@monty­python.org> wrote:>

and then, when we find the *last* barrel, we can't make any more.> "discovering" isn't the same as "creating" the stuff in the ground for > us to find in the first place.> duh.

A Prius is closer to a Corolla. Both cars have almost the same> dimensions, passenger room and comfort so your comparison should be> between the Corolla and the Prius.>

Base price for a 2005 Corolla is $13,680. Base price for a 2005 Prius> is $20,875. That's a difference of $7195 BEFORE the dealer gouges you.> Buyers are paying anywhere from $4000 to $5000 over sticker for the> Prius. Annual fuel cost for a 2005 Corolla is $859, annual fuel cost> for a 2005 Prius is $562. So you'll pay between $7195 and $12,195 MORE> for a Prius and save a whopping $297 a year in fuel costs. No way a> Prius will pay for itself in 4 or 5 years. You'll have to drive a Prius> 24 to 41 years before you'll save any money in fuel costs over the> Corolla.>

As if that wasn't enough, some used Priuses are selling for more than> the list price for a new one.>

<http://money.cnn.c­om/2005/04/11/Autos/­used_prius/>>

barbie gee wrote:> > In article <oUSee.28308$3U.124­1273@news20.bellglob­al.com>,> > Mike Wilcox <spamspamspam@monty­python.org> wrote:> >>DTJ wrote:> >>>We sure seem to be. We discover more new oil every year than what we> >>>use.> >>

What do you mean "creating the stuff in the ground for us to find"?> What's there has been there for millions of years, old dry wells don't> mysteriously fill back up ­

Duh - they gave up on trying to sell cars here.>

'cuz they suck

so they bought a company that doesnt suck (or doesnt suck as bad...)-nissan!

i see a LOT of altimas around. not many maximas or 350's tho. must be doing > something right.

We sure seem to be. We discover more new oil every year than what we> use.

'think' again, they dont own nissan.

March 27,1999: Renault and Nissan announce their strategic Alliance.

Renault takes a 36.8% stake in Nissan (consisting of shares and securities > with voting rights) for a total of JPY 643 billion (EUR 5 billion/USD 5.4 > billion). The Alliance is intended to create a balanced partnership which will > boost performance.

June 1999: Structures are created to develop and set up common projects > promoting the profitable growth of both Alliance partners. The structures > cover all the activities of the two companies.

October 30, 2001: Renault and Nissan announce their decision to further > strengthen the Alliance, in accordance with the terms of the original > agreement, so that the two partners can implement common projects more > quickly. Renault-Nissan B.V. is founded on March 28, 2002.

March 1st, 2002: Renault increases its stake in Nissan from 36.8% to 44.4% > (shares and securities with voting rights), representing an investment of JPY > 215.9 billion/EUR 1.35 billion.

March 28, 2002: Nissan acquires a 13.5% stake in Renault, for EUR 50.39 per > share, through a reserved capital increase.

May 28, 2002: Nissan acquires a further 1.5% stake for EUR 52.91 per share, > raising its stake to 15% as previously agreed.

May 29, 2002: The Alliance Board meets for the first time.

then its a merger.