Toyota Fears Success Risks US Political Backlash

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CarGuru > Driving > Toyota Fears Success Risks US Political Backlash 9 May 2005 07:26:14

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Toyota Fears Success Risks US Political Backlash
LeMod Pol 27 April 2005 19:21:55
	We mustn't go too far with our US success, says Toyota By David Literacy in New YorkВ(Filed: 27/04/2005) Japanese carmakers should give their US rivals some breathing space or risk a political backlash, the chairman of Toyota said yesterday. Hiroshi Okuda said he feared the success of Asian companies, which have grabbed nearly a third of the US car market, could prompt a trade war if politicians seek to protect the domestic industry. General Motors last week posted its largest quarterly loss for over a decade, while rival Ford saw its profits tumble 38pc and said its carmaking business would break even at best this year. By contrast, Toyota is expected to follow Honda and Nissan in reporting record profits for the past year. "We need to give time for some American companies to take a breath," Mr Okuda said. "Although a trade conflict, like ones in the past, may be avoided, there may be some impact because the car industry is symbolic in the US economy. As an automaker we have to think about what countermeasures we can take." Mr Okuda, who is also chairman of Japanese employers' group Keidanran, suggested technical alliances or voluntary price rises were possible. However Toyota appeared to backtrack when a spokesman for the company said pricing "should be determined by the market". Honda vice-president Koichi Amemiya also dismissed price rises as out of the question. "I realise that GM, as well as Ford, are suffering financially," he said. "But that doesn't mean you ignore the customer and raise your prices." Japanese firms faced political tensions in the 1980s as workers accused them of taking jobs away from the US workforce and dumping unfairly cheap goods on the American market. The carmakers responded by switching production from Japan and opening more US plants. They employ 1.8m people in the country, compared with 1.3m a decade ago. However Rick Wagoner, chief executive of GM, has repeatedly complained that the yen is too weak, giving Japanese manufacturers an unfair advantage. Toyota last year beat DaimlerChrysler to take third place in the US market. The companies' cars are rated by consumers as more reliable, and US models are frequently seen as tired, dated and of poorer quality. As Japanese manufacturers steal a march on their US rivals in car production, the likes of GM and Ford have increasingly tried to focus on the SUV and trucks market, although their foreign rivals are beefing up competition in that sector too. Honda yesterday reported a 27pc rise in net profit to Y95billion ($916 million ) against a year earlier, while Nissan posted a profit of Y517billion ($4.9 billion) for the same period. В© Copyright of Telegraph Group Limited 2005. -- LP "We are fighting today for security, for progress, and for peace, not only for ourselves but for all men, not only for one generation but for all generations. We are fighting to cleanse the world of ancient evils, ancient ills." Franklin Delano Roosevelt State of the Union Address - 1942
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223rem 27 April 2005 21:24:25 [ permanent link ]
	LeMod Pol wrote:> We mustn't go too far with our US success, says Toyota> By David Literacy in New York (Filed: 27/04/2005)> Japanese carmakers should give their US rivals some> breathing space or risk a political backlash, the> chairman of Toyota said yesterday.> Nonsense. The US is in no position to threaten Japan or China, who are our main creditors. They sponsor our immense national debt. Were Japan or China to dump the dollar in favor of the euro the US economy would collapse. They would suffer too, but they'd recover by exporting to the EU, South America, etc.
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C.H. 27 April 2005 23:09:16 [ permanent link ]
	On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:58:11 -0700, editor@netpath.net wrote: NO action by Toyota - or even by all Japanese carmakers - could save> Detroit. Even if the Japanese carmakers voluntarily reduced sales in> the U.S., Americans would just keep their existing cars longer. Why> would anyone pay $25,000 for a Detroit clunker just because they> couldn't get a new Toyota this year? Maybe they prefer american cars because they don't want their car to be bland like soup you feed to the sick? I would prefer a Chrysler 300 to a Toyota Camry, simply because the Chrysler looks interesting while the Toyota is the 1000th edition of 'how much can we make a car look like a bar of soap?'. People love cars that are not perfect. Ferrari, Lotus, Lamborghini, all of them do not offer your coveted 'perfection to the last detail' but all of them have a soul unlike a Toyota, which is the automotive equivalent of a Zombie. Perfection breeds boredom. Chris
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Magnulus 27 April 2005 23:37:10 [ permanent link ]
	"C.H." <trapspam@trapspam.org> wrote in message newsan.2005.04.27.19.09.14.74179@trapspam.org...> Maybe they prefer american cars because they don't want their car to> be bland like soup you feed to the sick? And you don't think cars like what Chevy or Saturn are selling, are a bit on the bland side? I think people will settle for bland cars if they are dependable and good quality. And with the way fuel prices are going, fuel efficiency is increasingly a factor when people shop for cars, in fact now its a bigger factor than horsepower, for the first time in many years. Toyota and Honda both have American cars beat there; a Toyota Camry has better fuel economy than a Ford Focus or Chevy Cobalt, and it's a much bigger car- so unless you were dirt poor why would you buy an American car? The thousand dollars or so difference you'll make up for in fuel savings in 2-3 years. The plurality of newer cars I see on the road now seem to be Asian. It seems truck and SUV sales are the only thing keeping American automakers going, and popularity for SUV's is waning. Instead of whining about protectionism, maybe the United Autoworkers Union should start pressuring their bosses to design better cars. Otherwise I think protectionism will hurt the average American consumer. Don't punish consumers just because American automakers pursued a short term strategy of profits with nothing spent on bettering their products.
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223rem 27 April 2005 23:44:26 [ permanent link ]
	C.H. wrote:> On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:58:11 -0700, editor@netpath.net wrote:> NO action by Toyota - or even by all Japanese carmakers - could save>>Detroit. Even if the Japanese carmakers voluntarily reduced sales in>>the U.S., Americans would just keep their existing cars longer. Why>>would anyone pay $25,000 for a Detroit clunker just because they>>couldn't get a new Toyota this year?> Maybe they prefer american cars because they don't want their car to> be bland like soup you feed to the sick? I would prefer a Chrysler 300 to> a Toyota Camry, simply because the Chrysler looks interesting while the> Toyota is the 1000th edition of 'how much can we make a car look like a> bar of soap?'. In addition, American cars offer more 'car' for the dollar than Asian cars. The downside is that the resale value of American cars sucks big time. People love cars that are not perfect. Ferrari, Lotus, Lamborghini, all of> them do not offer your coveted 'perfection to the last detail' but all of> them have a soul unlike a Toyota, which is the automotive equivalent of a> Zombie. Perfection breeds boredom. Lots of GM and Ford products are extremely bland too.
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C.H. 28 April 2005 00:24:14 [ permanent link ]
	On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:44:26 +0000, 223rem wrote: C.H. wrote: Maybe they prefer american cars because they don't want their car to>> be bland like soup you feed to the sick? I would prefer a Chrysler 300 to>> a Toyota Camry, simply because the Chrysler looks interesting while the>> Toyota is the 1000th edition of 'how much can we make a car look like a>> bar of soap?'. > In addition, American cars offer more 'car' for the dollar than Asian cars.> The downside is that the resale value of American cars sucks big time. Correct. People love cars that are not perfect. Ferrari, Lotus, Lamborghini, all of>> them do not offer your coveted 'perfection to the last detail' but all of>> them have a soul unlike a Toyota, which is the automotive equivalent of a>> Zombie. Perfection breeds boredom.> Lots of GM and Ford products are extremely bland too. I didn't claim they aren't, but at least GM and Ford do have some interesting models unlike Toyota. Chris
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Brent P 28 April 2005 01:35:35 [ permanent link ]
	In article <nPRbe.7143$lf2.2781@bignews6.bellsouth.net>, Magnulus wrote: The plurality of newer cars I see on the road now seem to be Asian. It> seems truck and SUV sales are the only thing keeping American automakers> going, and popularity for SUV's is waning. Instead of whining about> protectionism, maybe the United Autoworkers Union should start pressuring> their bosses to design better cars. One of the forces that prevent putting money in to make better cars is the overhead cost of the UAW contracts that the automakers have to deal with. (note 'one of', there are others) The UAW and the automakers have an adverserial(sp?) relationship. The UAW's success is based on how much they can get from the automakers and vice versa. This alone could spell doom. It's also rather costly and that cost has to come out of the parts. The market isn't going to allow a cavilier to be sold for more, and it's not coming out of the executives' salaries. Otherwise I think protectionism will> hurt the average American consumer. Don't punish consumers just because> American automakers pursued a short term strategy of profits with nothing> spent on bettering their products. There is all sorts of protectionism going on. From company side to the labor side. I don't think Ford and GM will die out. I don't think they will be bought out (aka Chrysler... yeah yeah I know the semantics). If it all possible (UAW lawsuits and the like might stop it, in which case they might just give up on the US market) one of two things will happen: 1) Production will move in big hunks to china. or 2) the domestic side will fade away and they will import cars from their overseas brands.
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K Smythe 28 April 2005 02:12:21 [ permanent link ]
	On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:21:55 -0400, LeMod Pol <modpol@igs.net> wrote: We mustn't go too far with our US success, says Toyota>By David Literacy mmmm David "Literacy"?
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Magnulus 28 April 2005 03:51:04 [ permanent link ]
	"C.H." <trapspam@trapspam.org> wrote in message newsan.2005.04.27.20.35.38.337864@trapspam.org...> The people, who can afford high-performance cars, can afford the fuel. In> Germany, where gas is $5/gallon now, performance cars still sell well, But are most cars there performance cars? My guess, no. Also, in Germany there are alot of alternatives to driving, so people who choose to drive might be more apt to buy a car that is expensive to mantain and fuel. In the US this is not usually the case, often there is no alternative to driving, and people need more utility than most "performance cars" can give. Sportscars are a relatively small segment of the US market. Most of sell only a few thousand units per model.
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Magnulus 28 April 2005 03:56:33 [ permanent link ]
	"Brent P" <tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:-Iydnb9zedI6mO3fRVn-ow@comcast.com...> 1) Production will move in big hunks to china.> or> 2) the domestic side will fade away and they will import cars from their> overseas brands. Healthcare costs are hurting automakers. Apparrently as "great" as medical care is in the US, it is so expensive it cuts off about 1500 dollars worth of profit off every GM car or truck. If these guys weren't so bone-headed, they wouldn't have thrown their lot in with George Bush and Republicans, who will do nothing to advance healthcare reform or cap medical costs in any way. It's ironic that most of the competitors to GM and Ford operative in countries that have "socialized" or government regulated healthcare systems; and they are beating them. If "socialized medicine" were so bad, you would expect these companies to be uncompetitive, but it's just the reverse.
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C.H. 28 April 2005 05:45:47 [ permanent link ]
	On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:51:04 -0400, Magnulus wrote: "C.H." <trapspam@trapspam.org> wrote in message> newsan.2005.04.27.20.35.38.337864@trapspam.org...>> The people, who can afford high-performance cars, can afford the fuel. In>> Germany, where gas is $5/gallon now, performance cars still sell well,> But are most cars there performance cars? The majority of cars sold has comparatively powerful engines. Especially compared to the predictions of naysayers 10, 20 and 30 years ago. 30 years ago a Golf I GTI had 110hp and a Mercedes 280E 185hp and these were seen as very fast cars. Naysayers said, that these cars would disappear due to rising fuel costs. Today a Mercedes E320 has My guess, no. Your guess is wrong. Also, in Germany there are alot of alternatives to driving, so people> who choose to drive might be more apt to buy a car that is expensive to> mantain and fuel. Nonsense. In Germany public transportation is deteriorating from year to year. In a city like Munich the S-Bahn and U-Bahn together contribute less than 15% to total transport. As always you have no idea whatsoever what you are talking about. I suggest you do something for your education and spend a few months in Europe (I am sure you can afford a ticket as you are saving 'so much' on gas). In the US this is not usually the case, often there> is no alternative to driving, and people need more utility than most> "performance cars" can give. Sportscars are a relatively small segment> of the US market. Most of sell only a few thousand units per model. Sure, that's why the Corvette is one of the most successful sportscars world wide. And the new Mustang is selling like hotcakes. And the Chrysler 300 exceeds all the expectations. And ... Chris
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Magnulus 28 April 2005 06:41:20 [ permanent link ]
	"C.H." <trapspam@trapspam.org> wrote in message newsan.2005.04.28.01.45.44.459635@trapspam.org...> Nonsense. In Germany public transportation is deteriorating from year to> year. In a city like Munich the S-Bahn and U-Bahn together contribute less> than 15% to total transport. Germany (correct me if I'm wrong) also has an intercity high speed train network that the US lacks for the most part (the closest we have is the Northeast Corridor, and trains top out at about 125 miles per hour, averaging much lower). But if it helps the 15 percent who otherwise could not afford all those cars, to get around, then it works. In the US those same people would probably be forced to drive a car due to a lack of any alternative. I lived in the UK a few years in the late 80's. I would say transportation there was much better than in the US, there were alternatives often to driving a car.
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C.H. 28 April 2005 07:44:19 [ permanent link ]
	On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:41:20 -0400, Magnulus wrote: "C.H." <trapspam@trapspam.org> wrote in message> newsan.2005.04.28.01.45.44.459635@trapspam.org...>> Nonsense. In Germany public transportation is deteriorating from year to>> year. In a city like Munich the S-Bahn and U-Bahn together contribute less>> than 15% to total transport.> Germany (correct me if I'm wrong) also has an intercity high speed train> network that the US lacks for the most part (the closest we have is the> Northeast Corridor, and trains top out at about 125 miles per hour,> averaging much lower). If you can live with delays, missed connections, long travel times and such, I guess the Intercity network is for you. But if it helps the 15 percent who otherwise could not afford all those> cars, to get around, then it works. In the US those same people would> probably be forced to drive a car due to a lack of any alternative. I don't think the ratio is that much different in the metropolitan areas in the US. SF IIRC also has about a ratio of 15%. I lived in the UK a few years in the late 80's. I would say transportation> there was much better than in the US, there were alternatives often to> driving a car. The alternatives are for people, who don't have to be somewhere at a certain time. Chris
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Scott en Aztln 28 April 2005 08:06:15 [ permanent link ]
	On 27 Apr 2005 09:58:11 -0700, "editor@netpath.net" <editor@netpath.net> wrote: The most likely effect of the Japanese voluntarily limiting car sales>in the U.S. would be a sharp upsurge in both demand and market value>for used Toyotas. BINGO. Honda is already doing this with great success. Ask anyone who tried to buy an Odyssey or an MDX back when they first came out. Honda artificially reduced factory capacity to keep these vehicles in short supply; getting one for anything less than full MSRP was unheard of. My co-worker sold his one year old Odyssey (that had been in an accident and repaired) for almost as much as a new one costs. He turned around and bought a brand new one. This is a brilliant move by Toyota to duplicate Honda's success while appearing to "help" their competitors. -- Life is short - drive fast! http://www.geocities.com/scottenaztlan/
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TheMan 28 April 2005 08:24:16 [ permanent link ]
	"C.H." <trapspam@trapspam.org> wrote in message newsan.2005.04.28.01.45.44.459635@trapspam.org...> On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:51:04 -0400, Magnulus wrote:> "C.H." <trapspam@trapspam.org> wrote in message> > newsan.2005.04.27.20.35.38.337864@trapspam.org...> >> The people, who can afford high-performance cars, can afford the fuel. In> >> Germany, where gas is $5/gallon now, performance cars still sell well,> > <SNIP Was good reading until...> Sure, that's why the Corvette is one of the most successful sportscars> world wide. Ahahahahahaha. The Corvette is an American Sports Car. It's not an international sports car. The amount of sales oversea's would be laughable compared to say.. a Porsche 911. No one wants a clunky fibreglass billycart on wheels. -TheMan-
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C.H. 28 April 2005 11:03:02 [ permanent link ]
	On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 14:24:16 +1000, TheMan wrote: "C.H." <trapspam@trapspam.org> wrote in message> newsan.2005.04.28.01.45.44.459635@trapspam.org... Sure, that's why the Corvette is one of the most successful sportscars>> world wide.> Ahahahahahaha. The Corvette is an American Sports Car. It's not an> international sports car. The amount of sales oversea's would be> laughable compared to say.. a Porsche 911. No one wants a clunky> fibreglass billycart on wheels. The Corvette just got very good reviews in several German car magazines, who usually hate everything, that comes from the USA, with a passion. You probably are in your 70s and think the C2 or maybe the C3 of your youth and middle age are 'the Corvette'. They indeed were 'sportscars' only in looks, the C6 is a completely different beast though. And yes, a lot of people want a sportscar with a fiberglass body, the Corvette sales figures prove that. Chris
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L Sternn 28 April 2005 17:54:17 [ permanent link ]
	On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:21:55 -0400, LeMod Pol <modpol@igs.net> wrote: We mustn't go too far with our US success, says Toyota>By David Literacy David "Literacy"???
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Brent P 28 April 2005 19:02:21 [ permanent link ]
	In article <Zz0ce.139591$vL3.66664@bignews4.bellsouth.net>, Magnulus wrote:>> BTW, Socialized medicine is generally supported by taxes on the -people- not>> on the corporations as I understand it. Regardless, the perscription drug>> bill has built in tax increases on all of us who work. And as an under 30 something, I'm really thankful that I have to pay for> some old geezers boner pills, when the government provides me with no real> options for healthcare. Not! Socialized healthcare is even worse. They will tax you even more. Remember seniors have a 'fixed' income. They cannot 'afford' to pay more. Those of us working and having flat salaries however supposedly can afford to pay more. Because our income isn't 'fixed'. The republic is currently doomed. Politics in this country is about one group or another voting themselves money from treasury. About electing people that will bring 'home' money from other citizens. About taking from one citizen to give to another. About controlling as much of people's lives as possible. It's tryanny. You want socialized health care? Expect to pay even more. Because you'll have to cover for the geezers in an even less efficent system with much more overhead. Also why do you want to hand control of your healthcare to the government?
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Magnulus 28 April 2005 23:26:34 [ permanent link ]
	It's hard to imagine a system of healthcare any less efficient than what the US has now. It only really works well for a small fraction of the population, everybody else gets screwed in some way.
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Brent P 29 April 2005 05:02:14 [ permanent link ]
	In article <eHace.106821$f%4.92839@bignews1.bellsouth.net>, Magnulus wrote:> It's hard to imagine a system of healthcare any less efficient than what> the US has now. It only really works well for a small fraction of the> population, everybody else gets screwed in some way. See, it's all perception in this society. try facts.
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Ashton Crusher 29 April 2005 11:55:24 [ permanent link ]
	On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 12:09:16 -0700, "C.H." <trapspam@trapspam.org> wrote: On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:58:11 -0700, editor@netpath.net wrote:> NO action by Toyota - or even by all Japanese carmakers - could save>> Detroit. Even if the Japanese carmakers voluntarily reduced sales in>> the U.S., Americans would just keep their existing cars longer. Why>> would anyone pay $25,000 for a Detroit clunker just because they>> couldn't get a new Toyota this year?> Maybe they prefer american cars because they don't want their car to>be bland like soup you feed to the sick? I would prefer a Chrysler 300 to>a Toyota Camry, simply because the Chrysler looks interesting while the>Toyota is the 1000th edition of 'how much can we make a car look like a>bar of soap?'. > People love cars that are not perfect. Ferrari, Lotus, Lamborghini, all of>them do not offer your coveted 'perfection to the last detail' but all of>them have a soul unlike a Toyota, which is the automotive equivalent of a>Zombie. Perfection breeds boredom.> Chris Besides, for all practical purposes the idea that "imports" are better then "domestic" is a fiction. Most people I know with imports spend as much or more then I do on repairs and very few of them keep their imports to the kind of high mileage domestics routinely see. -- New service to compete with paypal Get $25 pre-registration bonus by following this link www.greenzap.com/25smackers4u
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C.H. 29 April 2005 15:58:36 [ permanent link ]
	On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 00:55:24 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote: Besides, for all practical purposes the idea that "imports" are better> then "domestic" is a fiction. Most people I know with imports spend> as much or more then I do on repairs and very few of them keep their> imports to the kind of high mileage domestics routinely see. Too true. Chris
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Daniel J. Stern 2 May 2005 03:18:23 [ permanent link ]
	On Fri, 29 Apr 2005, C.H. wrote: Besides, for all practical purposes the idea that "imports" are better> > then "domestic" is a fiction. Most people I know with imports spend> > as much or more then I do on repairs and very few of them keep their> > imports to the kind of high mileage domestics routinely see. Too true. But! Butbutbut! It must be true! I know, because I read it in Condemner Retards magazine!
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Daniel J. Stern 2 May 2005 03:19:17 [ permanent link ]
	On Thu, 28 Apr 2005, Magnulus wrote: It's hard to imagine a system of healthcare any less efficient than what> the US has now. It only really works well for a small fraction of the> population, everybody else gets screwed in some way. Why do you hate America? Are you some kind of terrorist? You obviously just hate freedom. DS (Hey, it works for Fox News...)
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C.H. 2 May 2005 06:31:24 [ permanent link ]
	On Sun, 01 May 2005 19:18:23 -0400, Daniel J. Stern wrote: On Fri, 29 Apr 2005, C.H. wrote:> Besides, for all practical purposes the idea that "imports" are better>> > then "domestic" is a fiction. Most people I know with imports spend>> > as much or more then I do on repairs and very few of them keep their>> > imports to the kind of high mileage domestics routinely see.> Too true.> But! Butbutbut! It must be true! I know, because I read it in Condemner> Retards magazine! You mean the National Enquirer for soccer moms ? ;) Chris
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Ashton Crusher 8 May 2005 22:21:31 [ permanent link ]
	On 28 Apr 2005 08:14:01 -0700, "John S." <hjsjms@cs.com> wrote: And many of those "Japanese Cars" that appear so threatening to GM and>Ford are actually made in the U.S. The real problem is GM and Ford>produce cars under a completely different cost structure than Toyta and>Honda. GM and Ford are facing the same problems United Air and>American face from their lower priced competittion.> The ultimate solution may be further consolidation of the U.S. auto>industry along with federal funding or out and out nationalization. I know that GM developed the Saturn division or company or whatever, but I've never understood why GM and Ford, etc don't just take their money (GM has BILLIONS in CASH) and simply start a new company that isn't under the control of the unions. I'm sure there must be some legal reason as it seems so obvious a thing to do. -- New service to compete with paypal Get $25 pre-registration bonus by following this link www.greenzap.com/25smackers4u
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John David Galt 8 May 2005 23:07:11 [ permanent link ]
	Ashton Crusher wrote:> I know that GM developed the Saturn division or company or whatever,> but I've never understood why GM and Ford, etc don't just take their> money (GM has BILLIONS in CASH) and simply start a new company that> isn't under the control of the unions. I'm sure there must be some> legal reason as it seems so obvious a thing to do. I agree. Of course all its plants would have to be in Right-to-Work states.
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RobH 8 May 2005 23:11:34 [ permanent link ]
	John David Galt <jdg@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us> wrote in news:d5lo2q$uj8$1 @blue.rahul.net: Ashton Crusher wrote:>> I know that GM developed the Saturn division or company or whatever,>> but I've never understood why GM and Ford, etc don't just take their>> money (GM has BILLIONS in CASH) and simply start a new company that>> isn't under the control of the unions. I'm sure there must be some>> legal reason as it seems so obvious a thing to do.> I agree. Of course all its plants would have to be in Right-to-Work> states.> Wouldn't matter, they would be built across the border in Mexico.
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Dave Head 8 May 2005 23:42:43 [ permanent link ]
	On Sun, 08 May 2005 12:07:11 -0700, John David Galt <jdg@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us> wrote: Ashton Crusher wrote:>> I know that GM developed the Saturn division or company or whatever,>> but I've never understood why GM and Ford, etc don't just take their>> money (GM has BILLIONS in CASH) and simply start a new company that>> isn't under the control of the unions. I'm sure there must be some>> legal reason as it seems so obvious a thing to do.> I agree. Of course all its plants would have to be in Right-to-Work>states. Yeah - the American auto companies have a reputation for not treating workers fairly whenever they can get away with it, which allows unions to recruit members with ease anywhere its allowed. DPH
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CarGuru > Driving > Toyota Fears Success Risks US Political Backlash 9 May 2005 07:26:14

	see also: Re: High Gas Prices ? at least for a… Re: crossposting Failure to merge and gridlock		pass tests:		see also: oil pressure light (with buzzer) 96… Trading rims on a altima and 240 fuel sensor

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Toyota Fears Success Risks US Political Backlash

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