Rebellious vehicle refuses to stop and drives off parking garage

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Rebellious vehicle refuses to stop and drives off parking garage
K Smythe 19 April 2005 20:14:32
	Why do we continue to give people like this driver's licenses? http://tinyurl.com/9xxda SILVER SPRING, Md. - A woman accidentally drove her car off a parking garage Monday, but suffered only minor injuries, police said. The Toyota Avalon landed on its roof after plunging from the top level of the two-story parking garage outside Warwick Towers, Montgomery County police said. Teeranjanie Persaud, 19, told police that as she pulled into a parking space facing the outside of the building, she put her foot on the brake but her car kept going forward. The car crashed through the retaining wall, going down nose first. "I thought the car was going to blow up, so I just called out," she told WRC TV. "I just froze up. My mind was completely cleared. It was like I was meditating." She credited her seat belt for saving her life. She walked away after being treated on the scene, police said.
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MidnightDad 19 April 2005 22:08:47 [ permanent link ]
	"K Smythe" <nospam@dev.null> wrote in message news:7iba619ofpjirb3rtpepbaanb6ob6e4fil@4ax.com...> Why do we continue to give people like this driver's licenses? People like what? http://tinyurl.com/9xxda> SILVER SPRING, Md. - A woman accidentally drove her car off a parking> garage Monday, but suffered only minor injuries, police said.> The Toyota Avalon landed on its roof after plunging from the top level> of the two-story parking garage outside Warwick Towers, Montgomery> County police said.> Teeranjanie Persaud, 19, told police that as she pulled into a parking> space facing the outside of the building, she put her foot on the> brake but her car kept going forward. The car crashed through the> retaining wall, going down nose first.> "I thought the car was going to blow up, so I just called out," she> told WRC TV. "I just froze up. My mind was completely cleared. It was> like I was meditating."> She credited her seat belt for saving her life.> She walked away after being treated on the scene, police said.>
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Daniel W. Rouse Jr. 19 April 2005 22:56:51 [ permanent link ]
	"MidnightDad" <someone@microsoft.com> wrote in message news:1113934196.99379c776f5da7cfa7adbd779491834f@teranews...> "K Smythe" <nospam@dev.null> wrote in message> news:7iba619ofpjirb3rtpepbaanb6ob6e4fil@4ax.com...> > Why do we continue to give people like this driver's licenses?> People like what?> http://tinyurl.com/9xxda> > SILVER SPRING, Md. - A woman accidentally drove her car off a parking> > garage Monday, but suffered only minor injuries, police said.> > The Toyota Avalon landed on its roof after plunging from the top level> > of the two-story parking garage outside Warwick Towers, Montgomery> > County police said.> > Teeranjanie Persaud, 19, told police that as she pulled into a parking> > space facing the outside of the building, she put her foot on the> > brake but her car kept going forward. The car crashed through the> > retaining wall, going down nose first.> > "I thought the car was going to blow up, so I just called out," she> > told WRC TV. "I just froze up. My mind was completely cleared. It was> > like I was meditating."> > She credited her seat belt for saving her life.> > She walked away after being treated on the scene, police said.> > I'd regard that more of a parking garage structural failure issue rather than a driver issue. If the brakes failed, there are only fractions of a second to react, and even yanking the parking brake won't stop a vehicle immediately unless it's going less than 5 mph.
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223rem 19 April 2005 22:59:58 [ permanent link ]
	Teeranjanie Persaud?! WTH??
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Skip Elliott Bowman 19 April 2005 23:36:01 [ permanent link ]
	"223rem" <223rem@sbcglobal.com> wrote in message news:Oyc9e.2791$xA5.2547@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...> Teeranjanie Persaud?! WTH?? It's an east Indian name. What's the matter?
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K Smythe 19 April 2005 23:55:28 [ permanent link ]
	On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 19:36:01 GMT, "Skip Elliott Bowman" <skipster@teleport.com> wrote: "223rem" <223rem@sbcglobal.com> wrote in message >news:Oyc9e.2791$xA5.2547@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...>> Teeranjanie Persaud?! WTH??> It's an east Indian name. What's the matter? > Talk about living up to a stereotype of being a bad driver, and you can pick your stereotype, too: She's a teenager. She's a female. She's Indian. She's driving an SUV.
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K Smythe 20 April 2005 00:00:09 [ permanent link ]
	On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 11:56:51 -0700, "Daniel W. Rouse Jr." <dwrousejr@nethere.comNOSPAM> wrote: I'd regard that more of a parking garage structural failure issue rather>than a driver issue.> If the brakes failed, there are only fractions of a second to react, and>even yanking the parking brake won't stop a vehicle immediately unless it's>going less than 5 mph.> Do you believe the brakes failed? I think she hit the gas. What are the odds that the brakes would fail at that exact moment. I'd imagine you'd have to use the brakes just a little to even get up to the 2nd floor of the garage safely, and who waits until they are IN their space to start slowing down?
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Arif Khokar 20 April 2005 00:52:55 [ permanent link ]
	K Smythe wrote: Talk about living up to a stereotype of being a bad driver, and you> can pick your stereotype, too:> She's a teenager.> She's a female.> She's Indian.> She's driving an SUV. Indians are not necessarily bad drivers. Of course, I'm not female, nor a teen, nor do I drive a SUV.
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223rem 20 April 2005 01:28:13 [ permanent link ]
	Arif Khokar wrote:> K Smythe wrote:> Talk about living up to a stereotype of being a bad driver, and you> can pick your stereotype, too:>> She's a teenager.>> She's a female.>> She's Indian.>> She's driving an SUV.> Indians are not necessarily bad drivers. Of course, I'm not female, nor > a teen, nor do I drive a SUV. Nor are you an Indian
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223rem 20 April 2005 01:36:13 [ permanent link ]
	Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote: I'd regard that more of a parking garage structural failure issue rather> than a driver issue.> If the brakes failed, there are only fractions of a second to react, and> even yanking the parking brake won't stop a vehicle immediately unless it's> going less than 5 mph.> LMAO. Her brain failed and she stepped on the gas. Probably fresh off the boat and unused to modern cars and driving.
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Skip Elliott Bowman 20 April 2005 02:02:41 [ permanent link ]
	"223rem" <223rem@sbcglobal.com> wrote in message news:hRe9e.1710$L03.83@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...> Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:> I'd regard that more of a parking garage structural failure issue rather>> than a driver issue.>> If the brakes failed, there are only fractions of a second to react, and>> even yanking the parking brake won't stop a vehicle immediately unless >> it's>> going less than 5 mph.> LMAO. Her brain failed and she stepped on the gas. Probably> fresh off the boat and unused to modern cars and driving. And you know all this how?
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Skip Elliott Bowman 20 April 2005 02:04:35 [ permanent link ]
	"K Smythe" <nospam@dev.null> wrote in message news:dfoa61d2n3gaillt35h1p0uc853195kv0j@4ax.com...> On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 19:36:01 GMT, "Skip Elliott Bowman"> <skipster@teleport.com> wrote:> "223rem" <223rem@sbcglobal.com> wrote in message>>news:Oyc9e.2791$xA5.2547@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...>>> Teeranjanie Persaud?! WTH??>> It's an east Indian name. What's the matter?>> Talk about living up to a stereotype of being a bad driver, and you> can pick your stereotype, too:> She's a teenager.> She's a female.> She's Indian. And people wonder why I accuse them of bigotry. She's driving an SUV. Um, the Avalon is a jazzy little jellybean car, not an SUV. You're making assumptions all over the place that you can't substantiate.
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Arif Khokar 20 April 2005 02:10:09 [ permanent link ]
	Skip Elliott Bowman wrote: "223rem" <223rem@sbcglobal.com> wrote: LMAO. Her brain failed and she stepped on the gas. And you know all this how? I find it unlikely that she would have been able to get into the parking garage without using the brakes.
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223rem 20 April 2005 02:36:44 [ permanent link ]
	Skip Elliott Bowman wrote:> "223rem" <223rem@sbcglobal.com> wrote in message > news:Oyc9e.2791$xA5.2547@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...> Teeranjanie Persaud?! WTH??> It's an east Indian name. What's the matter? Just wondering what's she doing here
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Garth Almgren 20 April 2005 03:01:56 [ permanent link ]
	Around 4/19/2005 3:36 PM, 223rem wrote: Skip Elliott Bowman wrote:> "223rem" <223rem@sbcglobal.com> wrote in message >> news:Oyc9e.2791$xA5.2547@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...>> Teeranjanie Persaud?! WTH??>> It's an east Indian name. What's the matter? > Just wondering what's she doing here> That should be obvious: She's driving off multi-story buildings. -- ~/Garth \|"I believe that it is better to tell the truth than a lie. Almgren \| I believe it is better to be free than to be a slave. ******* \| And I believe it is better to know than to be ignorant." (pgp@v6stang.com for secure mail info) --H.L. Mencken (1880-1956)
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L Sternn 20 April 2005 04:44:15 [ permanent link ]
	On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 22:02:41 GMT, "Skip Elliott Bowman" <skipster@teleport.com> wrote: "223rem" <223rem@sbcglobal.com> wrote in message >news:hRe9e.1710$L03.83@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...>> Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:>> I'd regard that more of a parking garage structural failure issue rather>>> than a driver issue.>>> If the brakes failed, there are only fractions of a second to react, and>>> even yanking the parking brake won't stop a vehicle immediately unless >>> it's>>> going less than 5 mph.>> LMAO. Her brain failed and she stepped on the gas. Probably>> fresh off the boat and unused to modern cars and driving.> And you know all this how? > He can't, but it certainly seems more plausible than both the brakes AND the parking garage failing at the same time. What do you think happened? After searching around, I found a video of the news broadcast. It was called "an amazing survival story" and both the press and the police played up the fact that her seatbelt saved her, calling it "a prime example" of why you should wear a seatbelt. The wall isn't as sturdy-looking as I had expected it to be, but there were blocks in front of the spaces which both front and rear tires of that tiny econobox would have had to get over while her car would have had to maintain enough momentum to make it through the wall and all the way over the edge. If I had been her, I would have been standing on the brake by the time my front wheels rolled over the curb and when I kept going, I would have pulled the handbrake. If that failed, I would hopefully have the good sense and reaction time to throw it in park or at least neutral. I'm sure it happened fast, but hopefully you're not going very fast while you're trying to park in a garage and you're driving - you sometimes HAVE to react fast. Video (of broadcast, not accident) here: http://cf.nbc4.com/dc/sh/videoplayer/video.cfm?id=4391155&owner=dc. (Get a load of that thug in the background trying to get in the picture while they're interviewing her brother "Mickey"). Slideshow available here: http://www.nbc4.com/news/4388960/detail.html
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Jim Yanik 20 April 2005 07:07:09 [ permanent link ]
	Dave Head <rally2xs@att.net> wrote in news:a94b61trsp32q7j2t17sj102hv84oo98me@4ax.com: I believe you are exactly correct. Driving is _necessary_ here. If> you can pump blood, you qualify for a license. This won't change> until the vast majority of people have a cheap, efficient way to move> around as well as the automobile.> Dave Head> According to Brent,that is the bicycle. And healthy for you in the process!! -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net
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Skip Elliott Bowman 20 April 2005 07:59:23 [ permanent link ]
	"L Sternn" <lincolnfs@hm.net> wrote in message news:iq7b615jm0vhnkgq89q97se8pd67oafvhm@4ax.com...> On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 22:02:41 GMT, "Skip Elliott Bowman"> <skipster@teleport.com> wrote:> "223rem" <223rem@sbcglobal.com> wrote in message>>news:hRe9e.1710$L03.83@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...>>> Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:>>> I'd regard that more of a parking garage structural failure issue >>>> rather>>>> than a driver issue.>>>> If the brakes failed, there are only fractions of a second to react, >>>> and>>>> even yanking the parking brake won't stop a vehicle immediately unless>>>> it's>>>> going less than 5 mph.>>> LMAO. Her brain failed and she stepped on the gas. Probably>>> fresh off the boat and unused to modern cars and driving.>> And you know all this how?>> He can't, but it certainly seems more plausible than both the brakes> AND the parking garage failing at the same time.> What do you think happened?> After searching around, I found a video of the news broadcast.> It was called "an amazing survival story" and both the press and the> police played up the fact that her seatbelt saved her, calling it "a> prime example" of why you should wear a seatbelt.> The wall isn't as sturdy-looking as I had expected it to be, but there> were blocks in front of the spaces which both front and rear tires of> that tiny econobox would have had to get over while her car would have> had to maintain enough momentum to make it through the wall and all> the way over the edge.> If I had been her, I would have been standing on the brake by the time> my front wheels rolled over the curb and when I kept going, I would> have pulled the handbrake. If that failed, I would hopefully have the> good sense and reaction time to throw it in park or at least neutral.> I'm sure it happened fast, but hopefully you're not going very fast> while you're trying to park in a garage and you're driving - you> sometimes HAVE to react fast.> Video (of broadcast, not accident) here:> http://cf.nbc4.com/dc/sh/videoplayer/video.cfm?id=4391155&owner=dc.> (Get a load of that thug in the background trying to get in the> picture while they're interviewing her brother "Mickey").> Slideshow available here:> http://www.nbc4.com/news/4388960/detail.html I checked out the slideshow; thanks for posting the link. I'd need more facts before I committed myself to a theory: did her brakes fail, were the wall bricks mortared? She did clear the parking stops, punch through a stack of bricks, and continue out for about 5'. Must have landed on the nose and the rest of the momentum flipped the car on its roof. If the bricks were mortared, then she must have been moving pretty fast. I didn't see enough front-end damage to account for both hitting a brick wall and landing on the nose. But based on the pics and published details, I'd probably concur with you.
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Scott en Aztln 20 April 2005 08:08:42 [ permanent link ]
	On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 14:08:47 -0400, "MidnightDad" <someone@microsoft.com> wrote: "K Smythe" <nospam@dev.null> wrote in message >news:7iba619ofpjirb3rtpepbaanb6ob6e4fil@4ax.com...>> Why do we continue to give people like this driver's licenses?> People like what? Women. -- Sloth Kills! http://www.geocities.com/slothkills/
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L Sternn 20 April 2005 08:57:54 [ permanent link ]
	On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 03:59:23 GMT, "Skip Elliott Bowman" <skipster@teleport.com> wrote: "L Sternn" <lincolnfs@hm.net> wrote in message >news:iq7b615jm0vhnkgq89q97se8pd67oafvhm@4ax.com...>> On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 22:02:41 GMT, "Skip Elliott Bowman">> <skipster@teleport.com> wrote: Video (of broadcast, not accident) here:>> http://cf.nbc4.com/dc/sh/videoplayer/video.cfm?id=4391155&owner=dc.>> (Get a load of that thug in the background trying to get in the>> picture while they're interviewing her brother "Mickey").>> Slideshow available here:>> http://www.nbc4.com/news/4388960/detail.html> I checked out the slideshow; thanks for posting the link. I'd need more >facts before I committed myself to a theory: did her brakes fail, were the >wall bricks mortared? She did clear the parking stops, punch through a >stack of bricks, and continue out for about 5'. Must have landed on the >nose and the rest of the momentum flipped the car on its roof. If the >bricks were mortared, then she must have been moving pretty fast. I didn't >see enough front-end damage to account for both hitting a brick wall and >landing on the nose.> But based on the pics and published details, I'd probably concur with you. > The video showed a little more detail of the wall she went through, but not enough to really tell how strong it was. From what I could tell from the video they were mortared, but they weren't the sturdier cinder blocks that I had initially imagined. Unless I misunderstand the term "mortared". I certainly don't believe they were simply stacked up on top of each other, but I'm no construction expert - Are some parking garages built with Elmer's Glue instead of "mortar"? I will admit that I think there's a very slight possibility that her brakes failed at that precise moment and the wall was kind of weak to begin with - the garage and apt. building don't look very new and I don't really have much expertise in the strength of 30-40 year old (just a guess) construction material. Accident investigators are supposed to be trained in estimating speed - I'm not trained and I don't have the benefit of a close look, but I'll hazard a guess that she wasn't going very fast, although the parking stop and the wall surely must have slowed her down a little. If the brakes did fail, I'd certainly want to know why and if this was a problem specific to Avalons or if it was just a freak accident. I've never heard of brakes failing under normal conditions - (I'm not counting "runaway trucks" as "normal"). Has anyone else out there heard of brake failure like this? If so, what could cause it? If it's simply not servicing your brakes when they need it, then I think the cops should have been saying that this was "a prime example" of why you should properly maintain your vehicle. Seatbelts are great, but avoiding an accident in the first place is even better. I have a feeling she's not going to be parking in those spaces closest to the edge anymore. I probably wouldn't want to either if that happened to me.
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Dave Head 20 April 2005 14:20:01 [ permanent link ]
	On 20 Apr 2005 03:07:09 GMT, Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote: Dave Head <rally2xs@att.net> wrote in>news:a94b61trsp32q7j2t17sj102hv84oo98me@4ax.com: > I believe you are exactly correct. Driving is _necessary_ here. If>> you can pump blood, you qualify for a license. This won't change>> until the vast majority of people have a cheap, efficient way to move>> around as well as the automobile.>> Dave Head>> According to Brent,that is the bicycle. >And healthy for you in the process!!> Well, yeah, but a 34 mile round-trip to work in ice and snow might get one thinking about suicide if they had to do it on a bike every day, only they wouldn't need to do it 'cuz someone in a car, fiddling with the radio, would hit 'em and solve the problem for 'em anyway. DPH
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Skip Elliott Bowman 20 April 2005 19:07:22 [ permanent link ]
	"L Sternn" <lincolnfs@hm.net> wrote in message news:usmb61dk1g9qp9mrrr1k722ro550td7qfb@4ax.com... Unless I misunderstand the term "mortared". I certainly don't> believe they were simply stacked up on top of each other, but I'm no> construction expert - Are some parking garages built with Elmer's Glue> instead of "mortar"? Exactly. The wall could have been built with inferior materials. I will admit that I think there's a very slight possibility that her> brakes failed at that precise moment and the wall was kind of weak to> begin with - the garage and apt. building don't look very new and I> don't really have much expertise in the strength of 30-40 year old> (just a guess) construction material. If inferior materials were used, they would deteriorate pretty fast. This may be a fact that emerges from the investigation. Accident investigators are supposed to be trained in estimating speed> - I'm not trained and I don't have the benefit of a close look, but> I'll hazard a guess that she wasn't going very fast, although the> parking stop and the wall surely must have slowed her down a little. Right. If the brakes did fail, I'd certainly want to know why and if this was> a problem specific to Avalons or if it was just a freak accident.> I've never heard of brakes failing under normal conditions - (I'm not> counting "runaway trucks" as "normal"). It's been decades since a brake cylinder failed on me, but it does happen. Has anyone else out there heard of brake failure like this? If so,> what could cause it? If it's simply not servicing your brakes when> they need it, then I think the cops should have been saying that this> was "a prime example" of why you should properly maintain your> vehicle. This car didn't look more than maybe 5 years old. Far too soon for the brakes to fail unless it had been used as a delivery vehicle.
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K Smythe 20 April 2005 19:47:40 [ permanent link ]
	On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:46:07 -0500, russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto) wrote: Most people live in cities with public buses. Most people are capable>>of walking to a bus stop. It's cheap and it's healthy. > It's not efficient. It gets people to where they want to go faster than walking, and in many cases faster than a bike. Nor all that cheap, Eh? What's the typical fare for public transportation? About $1? That is cheap! though it is cheaper than>owning and operating a car. It's not even comparable to paying for a car. And lots of people live outside of>cities, or in cities with a very poor bus system. But MOST people live in cities. Even cities with "very poor" bus systems manage to move people around. All this talk of "very poor" bus systems is just a scam by those who would profit from light rail.
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K Smythe 20 April 2005 19:49:26 [ permanent link ]
	On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 10:20:01 GMT, Dave Head <rally2xs@att.net> wrote: Well, yeah, but a 34 mile round-trip to work in ice and snow might get one>thinking about suicide if they had to do it on a bike every day, only they>wouldn't need to do it 'cuz someone in a car, fiddling with the radio, would>hit 'em and solve the problem for 'em anyway.> If you had been born 150 years ago, you wouldn't have survived. You would have drowned in your own tears. DPH
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Matthew Russotto 20 April 2005 20:42:57 [ permanent link ]
	In article <h8uc61hq2o1ho9122itvhohqg3g2vcn0j3@4ax.com>, K Smythe <nospam@dev.null> wrote:>On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:46:07 -0500, russotto@grace.speakeasy.net>(Matthew Russotto) wrote:> Most people live in cities with public buses. Most people are capable>>>of walking to a bus stop. It's cheap and it's healthy. >> It's not efficient.> It gets people to where they want to go faster than walking, and in>many cases faster than a bike. Not always faster than walking, even, when you consider waiting time. Nor all that cheap, > Eh?> What's the typical fare for public transportation? About $1?> That is cheap! For Philadelphia, $2 for a bus, plus $.60 for each transfer. Exact change of course. though it is cheaper than>>owning and operating a car. > It's not even comparable to paying for a car. Quite comparable. Depending upon your assumptions, the bus is, of course, a lot cheaper, but not by orders of magnitude. And lots of people live outside of>>cities, or in cities with a very poor bus system. But MOST people live in cities. Only if you include small cities and suburbs as cities; these may not even have bus service. Even cities with "very poor" bus>systems manage to move people around. Yes, but poorly. Even cities with extensive bus systems can have _common_ nightmare trips with several transfers and several hours to go only a few miles. And I don't mean just in bad traffic. All this talk of "very poor" bus systems is just a scam by those who>would profit from light rail. It's true that light rail won't solve the problem, but buses are still awful. -- There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can result in a fully-depreciated one.
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Daniel W. Rouse Jr. 20 April 2005 23:13:11 [ permanent link ]
	"K Smythe" <nospam@dev.null> wrote in message news:anoa61t1hoqd1qhsrmld8s055m2hnr6pdd@4ax.com...> On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 11:56:51 -0700, "Daniel W. Rouse Jr."> <dwrousejr@nethere.comNOSPAM> wrote:> I'd regard that more of a parking garage structural failure issue rather> >than a driver issue.> > If the brakes failed, there are only fractions of a second to react, and> >even yanking the parking brake won't stop a vehicle immediately unless it's> >going less than 5 mph.> > Do you believe the brakes failed?> It's possible. I've had brake failure before, and while the pedal doesn't instantly fail and just drop to the floor, when the brakes start to go, they go quickly. My specific case was the wrong kind of brake pads put on my car. Braking in normal situations was just fine, but once I was in bumper to bumper traffic, the stop and go traffic got the brakes too hot. When that happened, the pedal was extremely soft--going almost halfway to the floor before pressure was felt, and the braking action was extremely weak. Another application of the brakes meant the pedal went even further down and braking action was even weaker. If I had not pulled over to the side of the road to let the brakes cool, it's likely the pedal would have gone all the way to the floor and a collision would have resulted. Suffice to say that I took the car back to the brake shop the very next day and they put the right pads on--someone screwed up big time the first time--so brake failure was no longer an issue. My point, still, is that the walls of a parking garage should be more than just a visible barrier, that they should be able to stop moving car at up to a certain speed. I think she hit the gas. What are the odds that the brakes would fail> at that exact moment. I'd imagine you'd have to use the brakes just a> little to even get up to the 2nd floor of the garage safely, and who> waits until they are IN their space to start slowing down?> Not very likely, I would say. Then again when my brakes failed, they seemed just fine up until that point.
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L Sternn 21 April 2005 11:17:36 [ permanent link ]
	On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 15:07:22 GMT, "Skip Elliott Bowman" <skipster@teleport.com> wrote: "L Sternn" <lincolnfs@hm.net> wrote in message >news:usmb61dk1g9qp9mrrr1k722ro550td7qfb@4ax.com...> Unless I misunderstand the term "mortared". I certainly don't>> believe they were simply stacked up on top of each other, but I'm no>> construction expert - Are some parking garages built with Elmer's Glue>> instead of "mortar"?> Exactly. The wall could have been built with inferior materials. BUt what is it if it is not mortar? I suspect "mortar" is a relatively generic term and that there are varying qualities of mortar. I will admit that I think there's a very slight possibility that her>> brakes failed at that precise moment and the wall was kind of weak to>> begin with - the garage and apt. building don't look very new and I>> don't really have much expertise in the strength of 30-40 year old>> (just a guess) construction material.> If inferior materials were used, they would deteriorate pretty fast. This >may be a fact that emerges from the investigation. So if I'm correct in judging the age of the structure (40-50 years), then it must be good since it has lasted so long (by your logic). Accident investigators are supposed to be trained in estimating speed>> - I'm not trained and I don't have the benefit of a close look, but>> I'll hazard a guess that she wasn't going very fast, although the>> parking stop and the wall surely must have slowed her down a little.> Right. Right, right. If the brakes did fail, I'd certainly want to know why and if this was>> a problem specific to Avalons or if it was just a freak accident.>> I've never heard of brakes failing under normal conditions - (I'm not>> counting "runaway trucks" as "normal").> It's been decades since a brake cylinder failed on me, but it does happen. details - I've never had one fail one me, but I want to know everything about brake failure that there is to know. I sure as hell don't want to drive off the ledge of a parking garage. Has anyone else out there heard of brake failure like this? If so,>> what could cause it? If it's simply not servicing your brakes when>> they need it, then I think the cops should have been saying that this>> was "a prime example" of why you should properly maintain your>> vehicle.> This car didn't look more than maybe 5 years old. Far too soon for the >brakes to fail unless it had been used as a delivery vehicle. > So is the possibility that the brakes failed nil?
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Skip Elliott Bowman 21 April 2005 11:40:52 [ permanent link ]
	"L Sternn" <lincolnfs@hm.net> wrote in message news:ndke61pl3b76sdltcm0etaeq4o2n1jglee@4ax.com...> On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 15:07:22 GMT, "Skip Elliott Bowman"> <skipster@teleport.com> wrote:> "L Sternn" <lincolnfs@hm.net> wrote in message>>news:usmb61dk1g9qp9mrrr1k722ro550td7qfb@4ax.com...>> Unless I misunderstand the term "mortared". I certainly don't>>> believe they were simply stacked up on top of each other, but I'm no>>> construction expert - Are some parking garages built with Elmer's Glue>>> instead of "mortar"?>> Exactly. The wall could have been built with inferior materials.> BUt what is it if it is not mortar? I suspect "mortar" is a> relatively generic term and that there are varying qualities of> mortar. If I were investigating this, i'd look at the mortar, or if there was even any used. It may not have been up to code. I will admit that I think there's a very slight possibility that her>>> brakes failed at that precise moment and the wall was kind of weak to>>> begin with - the garage and apt. building don't look very new and I>>> don't really have much expertise in the strength of 30-40 year old>>> (just a guess) construction material.>> If inferior materials were used, they would deteriorate pretty fast. This>>may be a fact that emerges from the investigation.> So if I'm correct in judging the age of the structure (40-50 years),> then it must be good since it has lasted so long (by your logic). If that's its age, it's far too soon for the mortar and bricks to crumble like they did. I've never heard of brakes failing under normal conditions - (I'm not>>> counting "runaway trucks" as "normal").>> It's been decades since a brake cylinder failed on me, but it does happen.> details - I've never had one fail one me, but I want to know> everything about brake failure that there is to know. I sure as hell> don't want to drive off the ledge of a parking garage. Both cars were from the 1970s. Master cylinder blew an o-ring. I was lucky both times. Has anyone else out there heard of brake failure like this? If so,>>> what could cause it? If it's simply not servicing your brakes when>>> they need it, then I think the cops should have been saying that this>>> was "a prime example" of why you should properly maintain your>>> vehicle.>> This car didn't look more than maybe 5 years old. Far too soon for the>>brakes to fail unless it had been used as a delivery vehicle.>> So is the possibility that the brakes failed nil? I wouldn't rule it out until I could rule it out. That's awfully Yogi Berra of me I mean I would look at that to see if it was a factor. We need details!
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Matthew Russotto 21 April 2005 19:19:40 [ permanent link ]
	In article <562d611tpll296oihlo91pe8d3jua2mclg@4ax.com>, K Smythe <nospam@dev.null> wrote:>On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:42:57 -0500, russotto@grace.speakeasy.net>(Matthew Russotto) wrote:> In article <h8uc61hq2o1ho9122itvhohqg3g2vcn0j3@4ax.com>,>>K Smythe <nospam@dev.null> wrote:>>>On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:46:07 -0500, russotto@grace.speakeasy.net>>>(Matthew Russotto) wrote:>>> Most people live in cities with public buses. Most people are capable>>>>>of walking to a bus stop. It's cheap and it's healthy. >>>> It's not efficient.>>> It gets people to where they want to go faster than walking, and in>>>many cases faster than a bike.>> Not always faster than walking, even, when you consider waiting time.>> For any distance worth taking the bus for, it will be faster than>walking. I'm not suggesting you wait for a bus to take you 2 blocks. For distances of _miles_, it may not be faster than walking, when you figure in waiting time. Nor all that cheap, >>> Eh?>>> What's the typical fare for public transportation? About $1?>>> That is cheap!>> For Philadelphia, $2 for a bus, plus $.60 for each transfer.>>Exact change of course.> Oh my - 2 whole dollars? That's almost as much as a gallon of gas. Less useful, however. And lots of people live outside of>>>>cities, or in cities with a very poor bus system.>> But MOST people live in cities. >> Only if you include small cities and suburbs as cities; these may not>>even have bus service.> Of course, I include "suburbs" and "small" city to me means something>under 250,000 people. At that size or smaller, you can simply walk>across town. Suburbs often do not have a useful bus system. And a city which is small in population may not be (indeed, often IS NOT) small in area. Even cities with "very poor" bus>>>systems manage to move people around.>> Yes, but poorly.> You either get from point A to point B or you don't. It's not that simple. There's also the time it takes, the cost, and the effort required. It's possible to take a series of buses from Trappe (an incorporated borough of a few thousamd residents, and a suburb of Philadelphia) to King of Prussia (an unincorporated suburb). However, the trip will take at least one transfer (depending on where in King of Prussia) and at least two hours. The same trip by car takes 15-20 minutes. That's what I mean by moving around "poorly". Even cities with extensive bus systems can have>>_common_ nightmare trips with several transfers and several hours to>>go only a few miles. And I don't mean just in bad traffic.> What do you mean by "a few" miles? Less than 10. -- There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can result in a fully-depreciated one.
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Matthew Russotto 21 April 2005 19:41:43 [ permanent link ]
	In article <nske61pburollkdhktf84v4qke3bhust2a@4ax.com>, L Sternn <lincolnfs@hm.net> wrote:> Where do you go then? Most of the US lives in cities. Most cities of>any consequence have buses. Cities too small to have buses are>easily traversed on foot.> What's your problem? This set of statements relies on changing definitions of "cities" and "small". The statement "Most of the US lives in cities" uses a definition of "cities" that includes suburban areas unserved by buses. The term "cities" in "Most cities of any consequence have buses" refers only to the urban core. And the term "small" can refer to both area and population; you use it as referring to both simultaneously. Further, people who live in smaller "cities" without buses often want to go from one to another, so even if their particular "city" can be easily traversed on foot, the distance to the next one cannot. Would I ever give up my car? No, but by the same token I am not>>>under any illusion that I couldn't survive without one.>> Survive? Probably. With a greatly reduced standard of living,> boo-fucking-hoo.What's more important? a life or the thread count of>your sheets? I want both. You want to live in squalor, fine with me. most>>likely. And if you deprive a signicant number of current drivers of>>their cars, some number of them will not be able to survive.>> Darwin, baby. I take that as meaning you concede my point. -- There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can result in a fully-depreciated one.
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L Sternn 22 April 2005 00:29:01 [ permanent link ]
	On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 10:41:43 -0500, russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto) wrote: In article <nske61pburollkdhktf84v4qke3bhust2a@4ax.com>,>L Sternn <lincolnfs@hm.net> wrote:>> Where do you go then? Most of the US lives in cities. Most cities of>>any consequence have buses. Cities too small to have buses are>>easily traversed on foot.>> What's your problem?> This set of statements relies on changing definitions of "cities" and>"small". The statement "Most of the US lives in cities" uses a>definition of "cities" that includes suburban areas unserved by>buses. The term "cities" in "Most cities of any consequence have>buses" refers only to the urban core. And the term "small" can refer>to both area and population; you use it as referring to both>simultaneously. Further, people who live in smaller "cities" without>buses often want to go from one to another, so even if their>particular "city" can be easily traversed on foot, the distance to the>next one cannot.> Can you name a city that wouldn't be considered small that has no bus service? As for inter-urbna travel, there's always Greyhound, taxis, or friends. Would I ever give up my car? No, but by the same token I am not>>>>under any illusion that I couldn't survive without one.>>> Survive? Probably. With a greatly reduced standard of living,>> boo-fucking-hoo.What's more important? a life or the thread count of>>your sheets?> I want both. You want to live in squalor, fine with me.> most>>>likely. And if you deprive a signicant number of current drivers of>>>their cars, some number of them will not be able to survive.>>> Darwin, baby.> I take that as meaning you concede my point. And at the same time, that your point is moot.
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Matthew Russotto 22 April 2005 01:01:17 [ permanent link ]
	In article <a53g61li4eng2rfah8frneftfdo9cuglcj@4ax.com>, L Sternn <lincolnfs@hm.net> wrote:>On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 10:41:43 -0500, russotto@grace.speakeasy.net>(Matthew Russotto) wrote:> In article <nske61pburollkdhktf84v4qke3bhust2a@4ax.com>,>>L Sternn <lincolnfs@hm.net> wrote:>>> Where do you go then? Most of the US lives in cities. Most cities of>>>any consequence have buses. Cities too small to have buses are>>>easily traversed on foot.>>> What's your problem?>> This set of statements relies on changing definitions of "cities" and>>"small". The statement "Most of the US lives in cities" uses a>>definition of "cities" that includes suburban areas unserved by>>buses. The term "cities" in "Most cities of any consequence have>>buses" refers only to the urban core. And the term "small" can refer>>to both area and population; you use it as referring to both>>simultaneously. Further, people who live in smaller "cities" without>>buses often want to go from one to another, so even if their>>particular "city" can be easily traversed on foot, the distance to the>>next one cannot.> Can you name a city that wouldn't be considered small that has no bus>service? Not as long as you get to redefine the terms as we go along. As for inter-urbna travel, there's always Greyhound, taxis, or>friends. Condemning people to ride the dog is pretty cruel. Using a taxi for inter-urban travel is cost-prohibitive. Depending on "friends", presumably with cars, is just being a leech. And I didn't mean inter-urban travel; I meant intra-region travel outside the city center. Suburb to suburb travel. -- There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can result in a fully-depreciated one.
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L Sternn 22 April 2005 01:04:37 [ permanent link ]
	On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:01:17 -0500, russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto) wrote: In article <a53g61li4eng2rfah8frneftfdo9cuglcj@4ax.com>,>L Sternn <lincolnfs@hm.net> wrote:>>On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 10:41:43 -0500, russotto@grace.speakeasy.net>>(Matthew Russotto) wrote:>> In article <nske61pburollkdhktf84v4qke3bhust2a@4ax.com>,>>>L Sternn <lincolnfs@hm.net> wrote:>>>> Where do you go then? Most of the US lives in cities. Most cities of>>>>any consequence have buses. Cities too small to have buses are>>>>easily traversed on foot.>>>> What's your problem?>>> This set of statements relies on changing definitions of "cities" and>>>"small". The statement "Most of the US lives in cities" uses a>>>definition of "cities" that includes suburban areas unserved by>>>buses. The term "cities" in "Most cities of any consequence have>>>buses" refers only to the urban core. And the term "small" can refer>>>to both area and population; you use it as referring to both>>>simultaneously. Further, people who live in smaller "cities" without>>>buses often want to go from one to another, so even if their>>>particular "city" can be easily traversed on foot, the distance to the>>>next one cannot.>> Can you name a city that wouldn't be considered small that has no bus>>service?> Not as long as you get to redefine the terms as we go along. I didn't think I was redefining anything. You claimed such cities exist - I simply asked for an example. As for inter-urbna travel, there's always Greyhound, taxis, or>>friends.> Condemning people to ride the dog is pretty cruel. Using a taxi for>inter-urban travel is cost-prohibitive. Depending on "friends",>presumably with cars, is just being a leech. And I didn't mean>inter-urban travel; I meant intra-region travel outside the city>center. Suburb to suburb travel. Every city I've ever lived in had service to suburbs.
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Nate Nagel 22 April 2005 01:55:01 [ permanent link ]
	L Sternn wrote: On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:01:17 -0500, russotto@grace.speakeasy.net> (Matthew Russotto) wrote:> In article <a53g61li4eng2rfah8frneftfdo9cuglcj@4ax.com>,>>L Sternn <lincolnfs@hm.net> wrote:>> On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 10:41:43 -0500, russotto@grace.speakeasy.net>>>(Matthew Russotto) wrote:>>> In article <nske61pburollkdhktf84v4qke3bhust2a@4ax.com>,>>>>L Sternn <lincolnfs@hm.net> wrote:>>>> Where do you go then? Most of the US lives in cities. Most cities of>>>>>any consequence have buses. Cities too small to have buses are>>>>>easily traversed on foot.>>>>> What's your problem?>>>> This set of statements relies on changing definitions of "cities" and>>>>"small". The statement "Most of the US lives in cities" uses a>>>>definition of "cities" that includes suburban areas unserved by>>>>buses. The term "cities" in "Most cities of any consequence have>>>>buses" refers only to the urban core. And the term "small" can refer>>>>to both area and population; you use it as referring to both>>>>simultaneously. Further, people who live in smaller "cities" without>>>>buses often want to go from one to another, so even if their>>>>particular "city" can be easily traversed on foot, the distance to the>>>>next one cannot.>>> Can you name a city that wouldn't be considered small that has no bus>>>service?>> Not as long as you get to redefine the terms as we go along.> I didn't think I was redefining anything. You claimed such cities> exist - I simply asked for an example.> As for inter-urbna travel, there's always Greyhound, taxis, or>>>friends.>> Condemning people to ride the dog is pretty cruel. Using a taxi for>>inter-urban travel is cost-prohibitive. Depending on "friends",>>presumably with cars, is just being a leech. And I didn't mean>>inter-urban travel; I meant intra-region travel outside the city>>center. Suburb to suburb travel.> Every city I've ever lived in had service to suburbs. In the DC area however, it's only from the city to the suburbs and vice versa. To get from, say, Greenbelt to Silver Spring, you go downtown. The Metro ain't cheap either, especially if you have to park at the station. nate -- replace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel
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L Sternn 22 April 2005 02:16:22 [ permanent link ]
	On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 17:55:01 -0400, Nate Nagel <njnagel@flycast.net> wrote: Every city I've ever lived in had service to suburbs. > In the DC area however, it's only from the city to the suburbs and >vice versa. To get from, say, Greenbelt to Silver Spring, you go >downtown. The Metro ain't cheap either, especially if you have to park >at the station. If they're taking the Metro because they don't have a car, they don't have to worry about parking. And I checked their fares - they are cheap. http://www.wmata.com/riding/hours_fares.cfm
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The Real Bev 22 April 2005 06:45:03 [ permanent link ]
	L Sternn wrote:> <skipster@teleport.com> wrote:> >It's been decades since a brake cylinder failed on me, but it does happen.> details - I've never had one fail one me, but I want to know> everything about brake failure that there is to know. I sure as hell> don't want to drive off the ledge of a parking garage. I drove a Ford for a long time after I should have replaced the front pads and ground them down to the metal, which then started grinding the rotors. During this time I noticed no decrease in braking power -- until the last week, when I could actually feel the scraping. There were grooves 1/4" deep in the rotors. OTOH, we've had brakes go out instantly when an axle bearing failed, allowing the axle to pull out of the differential and taking the brake lines with it. On two different cars, one a Ford and one a Chevy. If the pedal goes all the way to the floor but can be pumped up, you have a leak. Get it fixed now. If the pedal goes all the way to the floor but can't be pumped up, pray. -- Cheers, Bev --------------------------------------------- "The primary purpose of any government entity is to employ the unemployable."
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Paul 23 April 2005 04:07:25 [ permanent link ]
	On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 10:23:54 GMT, Dave Head , said the following in rec.autos.driving... Can a generation of kids that thinks it's not their fault if they get> >hurt garage jumping be expected to make sure their 3 year old kids> >aren't playing underneath the wheels of pickup trucks?> Kids? Hell, we just had a woman lose a leg, and the > other _may_ get amputated too, from crawling under an idling > semi-truck at a truck stop. Trucker came out and drove> away, and this cretin's legs got run over. Nobody knows why the> hell she crawled under there. Prolly drunk or something. Maybe the trucker refused to pay for the lot lizard's "services," and she decied to make him really pay?
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Rebellious vehicle refuses to stop and drives off parking garage

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