My '86 BMW 323 is really a crappy winter car. Sure, it handles great,> but I get stuck everywhere! Today, I got stuck *twice* within a couple> of minutes. Same scenario, hit a snowdrift and snow goes flying onto the> windshield. I brake because I can't see anything, and then I'm stuck... ­

I'm leaning more and more towards a 525xi, nothing like AWD to avoid> getting stuck. ­

First time, notice how little snow it actually takes:>

Second time, this time the car stopped in the next snowdrift:>

Notice that both times I'm stuck completely *on* the road.>

I'm leaning more and more towards a 525xi, nothing like AWD to avoid >getting stuck. ­>

Ulf

First time, notice how little snow it actually takes:>

http://members.road­fly.org/ulf/bmw1.jpg­> http://members.road­fly.org/ulf/bmw2.jpg­>

Second time, this time the car stopped in the next snowdrift:>

http://members.road­fly.org/ulf/bmw3.jpg­> http://members.road­fly.org/ulf/bmw4.jpg­>

Notice that both times I'm stuck completely *on* the road.>

I'm leaning more and more towards a 525xi, nothing like AWD to avoid > getting stuck. ­>

Ulf

I picked up a 2001 740i as a winter car. It already had a set of >Hakkap.......somet­hing Swedish snow tires on it. I find the weight of the >vehicle and the tires is more than enough to get me through the snow.

My '86 BMW 323 is really a crappy winter car. Sure, it handles great, >but I get stuck everywhere! Today, I got stuck *twice* within a couple >of minutes. Same scenario, hit a snowdrift and snow goes flying onto the >windshield. I brake because I can't see anything, and then I'm stuck... ­>

First time, notice how little snow it actually takes:>

Second time, this time the car stopped in the next snowdrift:>

Notice that both times I'm stuck completely *on* the road.

I'm leaning more and more towards a 525xi, nothing like AWD to avoid >getting stuck. ­

Ulf

Wow! And I thought my E30 saw serious snow in the winter! I'm > assuming> your on snow tyres. Time for a 325iX I think ­>

There is a lot of value in being away from the rest of humanity.

My '86 BMW 323 is really a crappy winter car. Sure, it handles great, >but I get stuck everywhere!

Today, I got stuck *twice* within a couple >of minutes. Same scenario, hit a snowdrift and snow goes flying onto the >windshield. I brake because I can't see anything, and then I'm stuck... ­>

First time, notice how little snow it actually takes:>

Second time, this time the car stopped in the next snowdrift:>

Next time, try the bus.>

What, did that snowdrift jump out in front of you?>

You DROVE IT INTO that snowdrift. And WTF are you doing driving around> on unplowed country roads? Just so you could take these silly> pictures, I'll wager... ;)

I'm curious - where have you got that kind of snow conditions? We barely> have any snow here nowaways. Here being Norway. ­>

-- > azoth@dod.no> -------------------­--------------------­--------------------­-------------> Wenn im Zweifel, Volleistung! DoD#2101> azoth@dod.no, '90 BMW 318i When in doubt - floor it!

Heh... My Saab, I can drive through snowbanks taller than the car

I actually doesn't snow that much here, but when it rains, it pours...

but I get stuck everywhere! Today, I got stuck *twice* within a

windshield. I brake because I can't see anything, and then I'm

First time, notice how little snow it actually takes:>

http://members.road­fly.org/ulf/bmw1.jpg­> http://members.road­fly.org/ulf/bmw2.jpg­>

Second time, this time the car stopped in the next snowdrift:>

http://members.road­fly.org/ulf/bmw3.jpg­> http://members.road­fly.org/ulf/bmw4.jpg­

Hakkapelittas are nuts. I had a set (Hakka 10's) once on a Saab 900 and >nothing, nothing could stop me in the snow. Not even studded. They were >awesome traction.

Heh... My Saab, I can drive through snowbanks taller than the car and >have no problem on bald summer performance tires... you know before >Bombardier and the Ski-Doo, people drove Saab 93's instead...

Obviously, you've only driven in light snow.> Be reasonable. When the snow is over your bumper, tires are not the> answer. You need more clearance.>

Big Bill wrote:>> On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 20:36:33 -0500, Max <max@mailinator.com­> wrote:>>

Never had Hakkapelitas eh?

What good do they do when the snow lifts those wonder tires enough > to> lose traction?> When the snow is high enough to lift the vehicle high enough that > the> tires don't any longer have enough weight on them to gain traction,> better tires are *NOT* the answer.

"Big Bill" <bill@pipping.com> wrote in message >news:ooqd219sd8udf­83t5nkc90fi78pvcao0p­t@4ax.com...>> On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 18:48:37 -0500, Max <max@mailinator.com­> wrote:>>

Snow will not magically elevate your car. The stuff is generally >pretty light, especially if light and drifted, and can be pushed aside >as the car plows through it if you have the traction to do so.

Sorry, but you are wrong. Good traction *is* the answer.

-Fred W >

I learned to (and currently) drive in the snow in northern New> England. What you say is definitely true should you drive into a

YM(and snow)MV,> -Fred W

"Big Bill" <bill@pipping.com> wrote in message> news:mpce215u9bf10l­ctvjd6g7mka34d1mkl36­@4ax.com...>> Well, I learned how to drive in the snow in Pa.>> I learned that when you simply plow into the snow, and it gets packed>> under the car, it lifts you up, and the tires lose traction.>> I haven't noticed any changes in show that would have changed this,>> and, seeing the OP's pics, I am confident in saying that.>> I wonder where you drive that this is not so.>

I learned to (and currently) drive in the snow in northern New England.> What you say is definitely true should you drive into a bank or pileup> created by a snowplow. But if it is just unpacked deep snow, you can> definitely go through snow as high or higher than the bumper.

Did you see the OP's photos? If not, I sugest you do so. Then you will> see what I mean.> >

Well, I learned how to drive in the snow in Pa.> I learned that when you simply plow into the snow, and it gets packed> under the car, it lifts you up, and the tires lose traction.> I haven't noticed any changes in show that would have changed this,> and, seeing the OP's pics, I am confident in saying that.> I wonder where you drive that this is not so.

The Malt Hound wrote:> > "Big Bill" <bill@pipping.com> wrote in message> > news:mpce215u9bf10l­ctvjd6g7mka34d1mkl36­@4ax.com...> > > Well, I learned how to drive in the snow in Pa.> > > I learned that when you simply plow into the snow, and it gets> > > packed> > > under the car, it lifts you up, and the tires lose traction.> > > I haven't noticed any changes in show that would have changed this,> > > and, seeing the OP's pics, I am confident in saying that.> > > I wonder where you drive that this is not so.> >

Fred, you are a knowledgeable guy but you are wrong on this one.>

You are guaranteed to get stuck if you insist on plowing through snow> that does not clear the underside of your car. It's one thing to go> over a short bump on the road but you cannot plow through a distance on> this stuff, regardless of what kind of wheels you are driving. Wheels> have to touch "ground" with sufficient weight to provide traction.

The reason is simple - if the underside of your car touches the snow,> your car will become a very inefficient snowplow and the snow will> bunch up against the underbody of your car and pack itself. The> momentum of your car will eventually leave your wheels "hanging" from> the "ground". As the weight of the car diminish from the packed snow,> the amount of traction you get from whatevr tire or drivetrain will> vanish.

You will get stuck as you try to move through this kind of condition.> Clearance is the issue if your tires can provide traction on the> surface. Snow must not touch the underside of your car. Of course, if> your tires are wrong then clearance doesn't matter. You're not even> moving.

Interesting. I live above Vail Colorado. We see a lot of snow. We've been> seeing a lot of snow all our lives. We are somewhat used to a lot of snow.> Yet no one around here is able to plow down the road in their 3,500 lb car> in over the bumper snow with the ease you suggest New Englanders enjoy.

I don't buy it. In snow as deep as being spoken about here, cars tend to> ride up and lose all or some of the contact patch. It's just the way it> works when a car has limited clearance in deep snow.

Plus, I don't think Hakka's are the best snow tires for where I live > anyway> (to keep context correct, the tires I have owned were the Hakkapelita Q).> They are pretty effective in fresh snow (braking, acceleration), crappy in> slush or heavily wetted snow and lateral traction in any snow is about as> bad as I have ever experienced which cause them to not track well. Superb> ice tire though. I got the sense the tire is designed for conditions where> the temps are uncommonly low all the time and every snow fall eventually> becomes hardpack and then ice. I can imagine these tires are spectacular > in that kind of condition.>

For my money, for the area where I live, the Blizzak MZ-02 seems to suit > the> conditions best. But only when the car in question can maintain the > contact> patch.

"Michael Low" <metrocomm@ca.inter­.net> wrote in message> news:1109869892.440­750.7350@f14g2000cwb­.googlegroups.com...­>>

Sorry, I've done this for hundreds of meters at a stretch in snow up > to the> bumper in my iX -- ie if you stop and open your doors you are > pushing snow> out of the way. It packs into the brake ducts and covers the fog > lights and> the openings to the oil cooler, and leaves a neat trail behind me, > but it> doesn't stop me. Guaranteed or not, I've done it.>

Ever looked under an E30? It's flat from the front crossmember back > with> only a couple of very minor protrusions. The only way what you say > would be> true is if the front was higher than the back so that snow was > wedging the> car upwards.>

Again, if your air dam is plowing it, snow doesn't touch the > underside of> your car because it's flat.>

-Russ.>

1) I mentioned in my previous post> 2) short of a huge weight in the back most cars aren't lower in the back.

Some air dams form a wedge to push it downwards, (most bimmers) have a > wedge> to push snow upwards.

First time, notice how little snow it actually takes:>

http://members.road­fly.org/ulf/bmw1.jpg­> http://members.road­fly.org/ulf/bmw2.jpg­>

Second time, this time the car stopped in the next snowdrift:>

http://members.road­fly.org/ulf/bmw3.jpg­> http://members.road­fly.org/ulf/bmw4.jpg­>

Notice that both times I'm stuck completely *on* the road.>

I'm leaning more and more towards a 525xi, nothing like AWD to avoid> getting stuck. ­>

Ulf

Wrong. Most BMW's have pretty even weight distribution - figured with> driver only. Add more passengers and the car is rear-heavy. Unless the> car (7-series, wagons) has self-levelling suspension, it's down at the

Wrong. My 330xi will push it down. My '91 525i will push it down.> A modern 5-series has a very rounded front-end when viewed from> the side. Even if the lower edge is quite sharp (possibly M3/M5)> with no fence (and they all have a flexible fence due to curb rash> possibilities), physics tells us that the act of splitting the flow> (of the snow over the edge) will result in upwards force on the dam.> The *only* exception to this would be a perfect snowplow resting> on the perfect plowed surface with no snow between the blade> and surface. Never happen.

Snow will not magically elevate your car. The stuff is generally > pretty light, especially if light and drifted, and can be pushed aside > as the car plows through it if you have the traction to do so.>

Sorry, but you are wrong. Good traction *is* the answer.>

-Fred W >

over a short bump on the road but you cannot plow through a distance on>this stuff, regardless of what kind of wheels you are driving. Wheels>have to touch "ground" with sufficient weight to provide traction.

The reason is simple - if the underside of your car touches the snow,>your car will become a very inefficient snowplow and the snow will>bunch up against the underbody of your car and pack itself. The

momentum of your car will eventually leave your wheels "hanging" from>the "ground". As the weight of the car diminish from the packed snow,>the amount of traction you get from whatevr tire or drivetrain will>vanish.>

You will get stuck as you try to move through this kind of condition.>Clearanc­e is the issue if your tires can provide traction on the>surface. Snow must not touch the underside of your car. Of course, if>your tires are wrong then clearance doesn't matter. You're not even>moving.

What good do they do when the snow lifts those wonder tires enough to> lose traction?> When the snow is high enough to lift the vehicle high enough that the> tires don't any longer have enough weight on them to gain traction,> better tires are *NOT* the answer.>

Looks like you need more practice driving in the snow. The center of the> road looks fine. Keep it down the middle and you should be fine. You should> also get 4 snow tires to help you keep it down the middle.

------------> Alex>