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CarGuru > Open discussion > Knackered rocker gear, and a tiny spring... 18 April 2005 11:01:13

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Knackered rocker gear, and a tiny spring...

Mick Brooks 17 April 2005 19:54:53
 I'm running a '92 Fiesta with a 1.1 HCS engine, and was a bit late (by
~1500 miles) adjusting the valve clearances when I got round to it
yesterday.

I think the car was telling me I was late: in the last week or two it
has seemed to pull even less well than usual - it won't hit 70mph as
early as normal on well-known roads, and doesn't seem to want to
accelerate from 60mph on even the tiniest inclines. Also, when checking
the oil a week or two ago the level had dropped to just below min, when
it had been above 3/4 the previous week. I topped it up and it's been
fine since - and I haven't found oil spots anywhere. On the plus side,
the awful top-end rattle stayed the same as ever...

I had the lid off yesterday, and the first thing I noticed while turning
the crank was that the no. 4 inlet valve spring was only being
compressed about half as much as the others. I checked its clearance,
and could have stuck my little finger in the gap, never mind the feeler
gauge. I tightened it up (it took at least a full turn on the adjuster)
and turned the crank twice and re-checked it, and again it needed
re-tightening, but seemed okay on the third check. None of the others
needed anything like that kind of adjustment, but while doing it I split
one of the adjuster bolts.

While checking that there weren't bits of bolt left in the rocker box I
found a tiny spring (the gf tells me I can keep her tweezers in the
toolbox now...) - about 1mm in diameter and 3cm long (though it'd
obviously snapped), and it tapered to a point at one end (not the
snapped end) - any idea what that is? Does it explain the one valve
clearance that'd gone mental?

I bolted it all back together (leaving only 7.5 adjuster bolts in there)
and took it out for a couple of roundabouts on the dual carriageway. It
was as noisy as ever (I can usually fool myself it's a little quieter
after I've done the tappets), and seemed as gutless as in recent weeks. I'm
coming to accept that it isn't going to last much longer, but does
anyone have an idea what's going on?

Oh, and if someone can check their crystal ball and tell me whether it's
going to give out with a bang on the motorway, or fizzle out in a more
convenient way, that'd be great....

--
Mick Brooks
Add comment
Mike G 17 April 2005 21:39:27 permanent link ]
 
"Mick Brooks" <brooksm@taranis.ph­ysics.ox.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:slrnd651mc.ik0­.brooksm@nodens.phys­ics.ox.ac.uk...> I'm running a '92 Fiesta with a 1.1 HCS engine, and was a bit late (by> ~1500 miles) adjusting the valve clearances when I got round to it> yesterday.>
I think the car was telling me I was late: in the last week or two it> has seemed to pull even less well than usual - it won't hit 70mph as> early as normal on well-known roads, and doesn't seem to want to> accelerate from 60mph on even the tiniest inclines. Also, when checking> the oil a week or two ago the level had dropped to just below min, when> it had been above 3/4 the previous week. I topped it up and it's been> fine since - and I haven't found oil spots anywhere. On the plus side,> the awful top-end rattle stayed the same as ever...>
I had the lid off yesterday, and the first thing I noticed while turning> the crank was that the no. 4 inlet valve spring was only being> compressed about half as much as the others. I checked its clearance,> and could have stuck my little finger in the gap, never mind the feeler> gauge. I tightened it up (it took at least a full turn on the adjuster)> and turned the crank twice and re-checked it, and again it needed> re-tightening, but seemed okay on the third check. None of the others> needed anything like that kind of adjustment, but while doing it I split> one of the adjuster bolts.>
While checking that there weren't bits of bolt left in the rocker box I> found a tiny spring (the gf tells me I can keep her tweezers in the> toolbox now...) - about 1mm in diameter and 3cm long (though it'd> obviously snapped), and it tapered to a point at one end (not the> snapped end) - any idea what that is? Does it explain the one valve> clearance that'd gone mental?>
I bolted it all back together (leaving only 7.5 adjuster bolts in there)> and took it out for a couple of roundabouts on the dual carriageway. It> was as noisy as ever (I can usually fool myself it's a little quieter> after I've done the tappets), and seemed as gutless as in recent weeks.
I'm> coming to accept that it isn't going to last much longer, but does> anyone have an idea what's going on?

Knackered camshaft?
Try checking the cam lobes for lift.
Oh, and if someone can check their crystal ball and tell me whether it's> going to give out with a bang on the motorway, or fizzle out in a more> convenient way, that'd be great....

If the problem is due to cam wear, the engine is unlikely to expire
suddenly.
Mike.

Add comment
Mungo "two sheds" Toadfoot 17 April 2005 21:59:05 permanent link ]
 Mick Brooks wrote:> I'm running a '92 Fiesta with a 1.1 HCS engine, and was a bit late (by> ~1500 miles) adjusting the valve clearances when I got round to it> yesterday.>

I'm trying to think where I've seen a spiral spring like you've described
and I'm buggered if I can! ISTR it looked like a small piston ring but made
of spring material. Perhaps someone else will know what I'm talking about.

It might have been on some valve seals or something similar.

I think you should get the compression checked.

Si


Add comment
Paul Giverin 17 April 2005 22:32:26 permanent link ]
 In message <slrnd651mc.ik0.bro­oksm@nodens.physics.­ox.ac.uk>, Mick Brooks
<brooksm@taranis.ph­ysics.ox.ac.uk> writes>I'm running a '92 Fiesta with a 1.1 HCS engine, and was a bit late (by>~1500 miles) adjusting the valve clearances when I got round to it>yesterday.>
The camshafts are prone to wear on these engines. It sounds like yours
is knackered. Its an engine out job to replace it so you'd better start
putting a value on the car and figure out if its worth replacing. I
can't think what the spring is. Could it be a piece of swarf which has
fashioned itself into a coil or perhaps a helicoil insert?

--
Paul Giverin

British Jet Engine Website http://www.britjet.­co.uk
Add comment
Michael Brooks 17 April 2005 23:09:07 permanent link ]
 In article <42629f56$0$25788$8­92e7fe2@authen.white­.readfreenews.net>,
Mike G wrote:

Hi Mike,
Knackered camshaft?> Try checking the cam lobes for lift.

Thanks, but breaking rocker gear has been the peak of my DIY career, and
I've no idea about how to do that. Could you give me some guidance?
If the problem is due to cam wear, the engine is unlikely to expire> suddenly.

That's good to know - I can take my time finding a new banger. And it
will take a long time, especially if there are any hills between me and
the seller...

--
Mick Brooks
Add comment
Michael Brooks 17 April 2005 23:17:44 permanent link ]
 In article <P1e760B6uqYCFwQW@1­0.0.0.3>, Paul Giverin wrote:

Hi Paul,
The camshafts are prone to wear on these engines. It sounds like yours > is knackered. Its an engine out job to replace it so you'd better start > putting a value on the car and figure out if its worth replacing.

Worth replacing: The camshaft? No. The car? Yes. :-)­
I can't think what the spring is. Could it be a piece of swarf which has > fashioned itself into a coil or perhaps a helicoil insert?

I don't think it was swarf, it really was a very fine spring -
with something like 50 turns per inch, and tapered very nicely. It's
natural state is fully closed, i.e. it can only be extended, not
compressed, because each turn touches the next.

I've never seen a helicoil (only heard about them here) and imagined
they were much bigger than this thing.

--
Mick Brooks
Add comment
Michael Brooks 17 April 2005 23:20:23 permanent link ]
 Mungo "two sheds" Toadfoot wrote:

Hi Si,
I think you should get the compression checked.

Thanks, I'll try this - if only for interest and the experience, but
it'll have to wait till next weekend.

Are there any reasons why I shouldn't just pick up the the cheapest
tester I can find?

--
Mick Brooks
Add comment
Mungo "two sheds" Toadfoot 17 April 2005 23:44:19 permanent link ]
 Michael Brooks wrote:> Mungo "two sheds" Toadfoot wrote:>
Hi Si,>
I think you should get the compression checked.>
Thanks, I'll try this - if only for interest and the experience, but> it'll have to wait till next weekend.>
Are there any reasons why I shouldn't just pick up the the cheapest> tester I can find?

No, any one will do.

Have a look at this:

http://www.spottspe­rformance.com/images­5/Viton%20seals.gif

..and this:

http://www.seanhyla­ndmotorsport.com/onl­ine/images/6571-1.jp­g

I *think* the bands around the top of the valve seals might be springs like
the one you have found. If they are, and I'm really guessing here, perhaps
one of your seals has disintegrated causing the valve to flop about? An even
bigger guess...if one of your valves is flopping about perhaps it's been hit
on one side by the rocker and it's been bent a little? It sounds unlikely
but I can't think of any other reason why you'd suddenly have a big gap
appear unless the top of the valve has broken down.

Si


Add comment
Taz 17 April 2005 23:51:50 permanent link ]
 
"Michael Brooks" <brooksm@taranis.ph­ysics.ox.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:slrnd65dio.ik0­.brooksm@nodens.phys­ics.ox.ac.uk...> In article <P1e760B6uqYCFwQW@1­0.0.0.3>, Paul Giverin wrote:>
Hi Paul,>
The camshafts are prone to wear on these engines. It sounds like yours>> is knackered. Its an engine out job to replace it so you'd better start>> putting a value on the car and figure out if its worth replacing.>
Worth replacing: The camshaft? No. The car? Yes. :-)­>
I can't think what the spring is. Could it be a piece of swarf which has>> fashioned itself into a coil or perhaps a helicoil insert?>
I don't think it was swarf, it really was a very fine spring -> with something like 50 turns per inch, and tapered very nicely. It's> natural state is fully closed, i.e. it can only be extended, not> compressed, because each turn touches the next.>
I've never seen a helicoil (only heard about them here) and imagined> they were much bigger than this thing.>
-- > Mick Brooks

It does sound very much like the spring on an oil seal as Two Sheds
suggested. Off the cam shaft seal?


Add comment
Mungo "two sheds" Toadfoot 17 April 2005 23:54:38 permanent link ]
 Taz wrote:>
It does sound very much like the spring on an oil seal as Two Sheds> suggested. Off the cam shaft seal?

Are these engines OHC or OHV?

Si


Add comment
SteveH 18 April 2005 00:06:10 permanent link ]
 Mungo "two sheds" Toadfoot <ufdi@hotmail.com> wrote:
Taz wrote:> >
It does sound very much like the spring on an oil seal as Two Sheds> > suggested. Off the cam shaft seal?>
Are these engines OHC or OHV?

OHV.

<makes the sign of the holy pushrods>


--
Steve H 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo'
http://www.italianc­ar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - MZ ETZ300
VW Golf GL Cabrio - Alfa 75 TS - VW Passat 1.8T 20V SE - COSOC KOTL
BoTAFOT #87 - BoTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC #
Add comment
Mungo "two sheds" Toadfoot 18 April 2005 00:11:23 permanent link ]
 SteveH wrote:> Mungo "two sheds" Toadfoot <ufdi@hotmail.com> wrote:>
Taz wrote:>>>
It does sound very much like the spring on an oil seal as Two Sheds>>> suggested. Off the cam shaft seal?>>
Are these engines OHC or OHV?>
OHV.>
<makes the sign of the holy pushrods>

Fort so. In that case it's unlikely to be a bit of camshaft oil seal.

<Reverently returns SOTHP>

Si


Add comment
SteveH 18 April 2005 00:15:26 permanent link ]
 Mungo "two sheds" Toadfoot <ufdi@hotmail.com> wrote:
<makes the sign of the holy pushrods>>
Fort so. In that case it's unlikely to be a bit of camshaft oil seal.>
<Reverently returns SOTHP>

Heathen.

It the holy sign should _never_ be abbreviated.
--
Steve H 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo'
http://www.italianc­ar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - MZ ETZ300
VW Golf GL Cabrio - Alfa 75 TS - VW Passat 1.8T 20V SE - COSOC KOTL
BoTAFOT #87 - BoTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC #
Add comment
Taz 18 April 2005 00:19:52 permanent link ]
 
"Mungo "two sheds" Toadfoot" <ufdi@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:O7mdnU3_Ee93X_­_fRVnyiA@pipex.net..­.> SteveH wrote:>> Mungo "two sheds" Toadfoot <ufdi@hotmail.com> wrote:>>
Taz wrote:>>>>
It does sound very much like the spring on an oil seal as Two Sheds>>>> suggested. Off the cam shaft seal?>>>
Are these engines OHC or OHV?>>
OHV.>>
<makes the sign of the holy pushrods>>
Fort so. In that case it's unlikely to be a bit of camshaft oil seal.>
<Reverently returns SOTHP>>
Si
Heheheheh. Last time I saw push rods was in my Triumph 250, and I had to
make them. Got to be part of the valve oil seal then.


Add comment
Michael Brooks 18 April 2005 00:23:05 permanent link ]
 Mungo "two sheds" Toadfoot wrote:> Have a look at this:>
..and this:>
I *think* the bands around the top of the valve seals might be springs like > the one you have found.

Ah, yes, clearer in the second picture - that looks like it could be it.
If they are, and I'm really guessing here, perhaps one of your seals> has disintegrated causing the valve to flop about? An even bigger> guess...if one of your valves is flopping about perhaps it's been hit> on one side by the rocker and it's been bent a little? It sounds> unlikely but I can't think of any other reason why you'd suddenly have> a big gap appear unless the top of the valve has broken down.

In fact, it reminds me of something I forgot to mention - there was
something free to move up and down the valve stem on the exhaust of no.
4. What's the diameter of the seals in your first picture? They look
familiar. Heh - I didn't realise that was important.

I think this explains the spring, but can the exhaust valve seal
disintegrating lead to a huge gap on the input valve?

--
Mick Brooks
Add comment
Mungo "two sheds" Toadfoot 18 April 2005 00:28:21 permanent link ]
 SteveH wrote:> Mungo "two sheds" Toadfoot <ufdi@hotmail.com> wrote:>
<makes the sign of the holy pushrods>>>
Fort so. In that case it's unlikely to be a bit of camshaft oil seal.>>
<Reverently returns SOTHP>>
Heathen.>
It the holy sign should _never_ be abbreviated.

Offers the Trembling "Just ridden thirty miles on a C90" Handshake as
appeasement.

Si


Add comment
Pete Smith 18 April 2005 00:32:58 permanent link ]
 In article <pNKdnYpTEY91Pv_fRV­nyiw@pipex.net>, ufdi@hotmail.com says...> Mick Brooks wrote:> > I'm running a '92 Fiesta with a 1.1 HCS engine, and was a bit late (by> > ~1500 miles) adjusting the valve clearances when I got round to it> > yesterday.> >
I'm trying to think where I've seen a spiral spring like you've described > and I'm buggered if I can! ISTR it looked like a small piston ring but made > of spring material. Perhaps someone else will know what I'm talking about.>
It might have been on some valve seals or something similar.>

Yep. Valve stem seals.

They normally have (the ones I've seen anyway!) a tiny double coiled spring
around the upper end of the valve stem.

If one of them broke, you'd end up with a spring about 30mm by 1mm long.

Pete.

--
NOTE! Email address is spamtrapped. Any email will be deleted
Remove the news and underscore from my address to reply by mail
Add comment
Mungo "two sheds" Toadfoot 18 April 2005 00:39:41 permanent link ]
 Michael Brooks wrote:>
In fact, it reminds me of something I forgot to mention - there was> something free to move up and down the valve stem on the exhaust of> no.> 4. What's the diameter of the seals in your first picture? They look> familiar. Heh - I didn't realise that was important.>

They're valve stem size :)­
About 6mm internally.
I think this explains the spring, but can the exhaust valve seal> disintegrating lead to a huge gap on the input valve?

No, but if one's gone then it's a fair bet that some of others have too. I
don't know if valves can be bent in this situation, it's just a guess (you
have to say stuff like that in newsgroups because there's always someone
waiting to jump on you for saying something that might be wrong), but I
suppose it's quite likely that it won't do them any good.

If you're feeling adventurous it's not a difficult job to replace the seals
and/or valves, in fact I rather like doing them. No, I don't know why
either.

Si


Add comment
Michael Brooks 18 April 2005 01:19:44 permanent link ]
 Mungo "two sheds" Toadfoot wrote:> If you're feeling adventurous it's not a difficult job to replace the seals > and/or valves, in fact I rather like doing them. No, I don't know why > either.

I'd love to try, but don't really have the tools or someone who knows what
they're doing to stop me rounding every bolt in sight. I think I'll just
start looking for something else.

It feels good to get to the bottom of it though, so thanks to all for
your help.

--
Mick Brooks
Add comment
Dave Baker 18 April 2005 01:40:04 permanent link ]
 
Michael Brooks <brooksm@taranis.ph­ysics.ox.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:slrnd65dio.ik0­.brooksm@nodens.phys­ics.ox.ac.uk...> In article <P1e760B6uqYCFwQW@1­0.0.0.3>, Paul Giverin wrote:>
Hi Paul,>
The camshafts are prone to wear on these engines. It sounds like yours> > is knackered. Its an engine out job to replace it so you'd better start> > putting a value on the car and figure out if its worth replacing.>
Worth replacing: The camshaft? No. The car? Yes. :-)­>
I can't think what the spring is. Could it be a piece of swarf which has> > fashioned itself into a coil or perhaps a helicoil insert?>
I don't think it was swarf, it really was a very fine spring -> with something like 50 turns per inch, and tapered very nicely. It's> natural state is fully closed, i.e. it can only be extended, not> compressed, because each turn touches the next.

It is indeed the partial remains of a broken valve stem oil seal tension
spring. The springs are close coiled extension springs with one end wound
down in a spiral to a point. This male end then screws into the opposite non
tapered female end of the spring to create a closed circle. This resulting
circular spring fits over the top of the nitrile rubber stem seal to tension
it against the valve stem and prevent oil leakage down the valve guide. What
you have found is a few mm broken off the male end of the spring. The rest
will be somewhere else in the engine. With broken and/or missing stem seals
the oil consumption will be very high.

The valve clearance is due to extreme wear in the cam follower (tappet)
which itself is the result of wear on the cam lobe. Strictly speaking it is
not the cam lobe wear that creates the extra valve clearance because the cam
lobes wear over the nose of the lobe and the valve clearance is set on the
base circle of the lobe which does not wear as it is not actually in
conctact with anything else. However extreme wear on the nose of the lobe
wears out the follower too and this then does create extra valve clearance.
The only cure is a new cam and all followers and a good engine flush and oil
change. However the rest of the engine is likely to be in poor condition by
this stage anyway and not worth fixing in an old vehicle.
--
Dave Baker - Puma Race Engines (www.pumaracing.co.­uk)


Add comment
Mike G 18 April 2005 04:53:08 permanent link ]
 
"Michael Brooks" <brooksm@taranis.ph­ysics.ox.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:slrnd65d2i.ik0­.brooksm@nodens.phys­ics.ox.ac.uk...> In article <42629f56$0$25788$8­92e7fe2@authen.white­.readfreenews.net>,>­ Mike G wrote:>
Hi Mike,>
Knackered camshaft?> > Try checking the cam lobes for lift.>
Thanks, but breaking rocker gear has been the peak of my DIY career, and> I've no idea about how to do that. Could you give me some guidance?

First find out what the valve lift should be.
A Haynes manual will probably list it under engine specifications.
Using a micrometer, measure a camshaft lobe at 90 degrees to the lobe. Then
take another measurement over the lobe itself. The difference between the
two measurements should tally with the figure given in the book for the the
valve lift.
Anything less, means the camshaft is worn, which can affect the valve
timing, and restrict flow through the vaves. A few thou is unimportant, but
any significant difference will have quite an effect on performance.

Wear is only one reason that could cause the valve clearances to be
excessive, but from what you say, it's definitely one I would consider, and
fairly easy to check.
Mike.

Add comment


Mungo "two sheds" Toadfoot 18 April 2005 11:01:13 permanent link ]
 Dave Baker wrote:>
The valve clearance is due to extreme wear in the cam follower> (tappet) which itself is the result of wear on the cam lobe.

And where were you earlier when we needed someone who knows what they're
talking about?

:)­

Si


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CarGuru > Open discussion > Knackered rocker gear, and a tiny spring... 18 April 2005 11:01:13

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