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Jeremy Clarkson: Goodbye, Rover. Sorry, I won’t be shedding a tear
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CarGuru > Open discussion > Jeremy Clarkson: Goodbye, Rover. Sorry, I won’t be shedding a tear 7 May 2005 01:38:37
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Jeremy Clarkson: Goodbye, Rover. Sorry, I won’t be shedding a tear

Mike Cawood 7 May 2005 01:38:37
 "April 24, 2005

Jeremy Clarkson: Goodbye, Rover. Sorry, I won’t be shedding a tear

We’re all supposed to be weeping over the death of MG Rover. But this is
not like the death of Concorde or the death of the Queen Mother. This is
not the death of a national institution.

Of course it must be a very bleak time for the company’s 6,500 employees
and their families as they stoically face an uncertain future. They are
not to blame - they didn’t choose the management. I dare say the closure
must also be worrying if you recently bought a Rover and now your
warranty is null and void. But this is your fault for buying a stupid
car. I have little sympathy for anyone who ignored the advice of every
expert in the land and bought a 45 “because it’s British”.

There was a time when British engineering counted for something. But
unfortunately this time was 1872. Today the demise of MG Rover is being
blamed on a collection of businessmen, two of whom have face hair, who
bought the company from BMW for a tenner and then began what looked to
some like a massive asset-stripping operation.

This isn’t surprising. What is surprising is that after so many years of
utter and absolute hopelessness there might have been any assets left to
strip.

Let’s begin with Longbridge, which I think I’m right in saying was once
the biggest car factory in the world. Certainly it’s the only factory
with a dirty great main road running right through the middle of it.

In the glory days of BMC, cars were built in one part of the factory and
finished in the other. Which meant the unpainted, unprotected shells had
to be taken across the road no matter what the weather. As a result many
had rusted away before they made it to the showroom.

Eventually a tunnel was constructed so the cars were no longer exposed
to the elements. Great. But sadly the tunnel was exactly 2in too narrow
for the Austin 1800, the so-called land crab, that was in production at
the time.

Not that it mattered much because the paint shop in the bad old days
rarely had any paint anyway. Richard Littlejohn, who covered the
disputes that plagued Longbridge back in the 1970s, said he would
regularly go to workers’ houses to find the bathroom was Allegro beige,
the door was Marina green and the sitting room was TR7 yellow.

When the Mini came along Ford was horrified, partly at the clever design
that made its efforts look old fashioned, but mostly by the
extraordinarily low price. Wondering how on earth this little car could
be sold so cheaply, they bought one and spent months analysing every
last component. Only when the work was completed did they uncover the
awful truth. Every single one was being sold at a loss.

This, of course, is the plague that besets all British inventiveness. It
’s always allowed to fester by idiotic management.

We saw a similar problem when Rover and Honda teamed up to make the 800.
When it finally made it into production: disaster. Customers found that
the back window kept popping out. Of course this didn’t really matter
because by the time the 800 came along Rover was already wearing
margarine trousers on its inevitable slide into oblivion.

A slide that really began when British Leyland went bankrupt in 1975 and
was nationalised.

On paper it must have seemed like a good idea, bringing together 97
different companies to form BL. But in practice the workforce and
management at each plant were still fiercely proud of whatever it was
they were making.

So, when Morris made the Marina, Austin came up with the Allegro, which
meant BL was competing against itself. And it was the same story with
Triumph. Remember the Stag? When it was being developed Triumph’s
engineers had access to the Rover V8. It was light, frugal and powerful
and would have been ideal. But there was no way they’d use “Rover
rubbish”, so instead they nailed together two Dolomite engines to create
their own V8, which overheated every time it was wet, dry, windy, cold,
hot or grey.

And let’s not forget BL’s styling department. Today Ford houses its
design team in Soho, so that they’re in the thick of the movers’ and
shakers’ action. In Italy the staff at Pininfarina and Ital are
deliberately made to work in exquisite towns with Renaissance
architecture and many men in sunglasses. Which brings us to the Metro.
It could only have come from a town that housed the Bullring.

So, infighting, lousy design and a factory that was no more suitable for
car production than a stable. And to make matters worse the company had
been targeted by extremists who were determined to make sure that no car
made it onto the road. In his first six months as chairman Michael
Edwardes had to deal with 327 different industrial disputes.

It’s easy to understand the motivation for all this unrest and
hopelessness. It’s much more fun to stand round a brazier shouting
“scab” at anyone in a tie than it is to spend all day bolting Prince of
Darkness Lucas components onto a car that wouldn’t have worked anyway.

What’s more, it didn’t matter. Back then, everyone still had a sense
that Britain ran the world, that Japanese cars were a joke and that the
Germans were a bunch of war-losing bastards. They were all so arrogant,
so far removed from the harsh reality of foreign competition, that they
refused even to look at the competition.

And anyway Jim Callaghan would simply roll up the following week with
another skipful of taxpayers’ cash. Over the years BL has cost the
British government £3.5 billion.

This is my problem. Since I was old enough to read newspapers I’ve
always perceived the British motor industry to be nothing more than a
fountain of woe, waste and doom. A park full of men in donkey jackets
raising their hands. A strike with a Birmingham accent.

Yes, there were flashes of inspiration. The Mini, of course, and the
Rover SD1. Even the Maestro was clever; with lots of space and a light,
airy feel, it was years ahead of its time. But these were pinpricks of
light, no more noticeable than faint stars in the inky blackness of
space.

And there seemed no end to the problem. The factories couldn’t be closed
because negotiations would have to include the sheet metal workers, the
metal mechanics, the draughtsmen, the technicians and half a dozen
unions, including the all powerful TGWU.

On top of that, you have Harris Mann, who designed the TR7 and the
Allegro, and Red Robbo, who refused to make either. You have Lord
Stokes, who was an invertebrate, and Edwardes, who’s much too small.
Then there’s Graham Day, Mrs Thatcher, Jim Callaghan, me, apparently,
Tony Benn, Honda, BMW, the Shanghai Automotive group and British
Aerospace who, in 1988, took the company off the government’s hands,
promising they wouldn’t sell it for five years.

Five years later almost to the day, and having invested virtually
nothing, they sold it to BMW for £800m. And what did BMW do? Why, they
launched the wilfully old-fashioned 75, proving that they had no idea
either. Nobody did. Nobody ever has done. Never in the field of human
endeavour has so much been done, so badly, by so many.

And then we ended up with the Phoenix Four, who cannot possibly have
dreamt even for a femtosecond that they had any chance whatsoever of
turning the company around. They needed at least four all-new cars, each
one of which would have to be at least as good as a Volkswagen.

And in these days of emission legislation and crash protection
requirements, a new Volkswagen costs around £1 billion to design and
develop. I’m told Renault recently spent £25m on a new heating and
ventilation system.

On that basis the Phoenix Four didn’t even have enough for a new door
knob. They must have known that. They must. And they must also have
known that no car firm in the world would want to get into bed with
them. Not with all that face hair going on.

Even so some people are saying the demise of MG Rover is my fault
because I failed to give the cars a good review and sneered at the men
in hats who drove them. I can’t understand this reasoning; am I supposed
to recommend all cars that are made here irrespective of their price,
performance or quality? Because if I am, all of you must go out tomorrow
and buy a London cab.

Even if I thought for a moment that anyone paid any attention to
anything I say — and I have figures to prove they don’t — I’m sorry, I’m
not employed to think one thing and say something else.

I didn’t like the vast majority of Rover’s cars when they were being
made and I won’t miss them at all. What’s more, I cannot even get teary
and emotional about the demise of the company itself — though I do feel
sorry for the workforce. In fact when I heard the news my first thought
was “good”. Now we can move on and do something we’re good at, like . .
. actually, I can’t think what we’re good at. But it definitely isn ’t
running car firms.

Think about it. The four coolest cars in the world are the Aston DB9,
the Rolls-Royce Phantom, the Mini and the Range Rover. British
ingenuity. Foreign investment. Foreign management.

There is, however, one big problem with the collapse. Road safety. I
really do think that with no more Rovers we will see a dramatic increase
in the number of crashes.

You see, in the 1960s and 1970s all the bad drivers who had no interest
in cars had Volvos. We knew to beware; just because a Volvo was in the
left-hand lane, indicating left, didn’t mean it was going to turn left.

Then Volvo went all sporty, forcing the weak and the feeble to look
elsewhere. Most ended up in Rovers, dithering about at junctions and
generally driving the wrong way down motorways. There’s one Rover that
has been stationary at the complicated double mini-roundabout in
Chipping Norton for 15 years, its driver paralysed with fear.

Now, with Rover gone, I’m worried because there’ll be no advance warning
of a bad driver ahead. They could all be camouflaged in Fords or BMWs.
And you’ll have no idea until the moment of impact.

I do think that in the fullness of time they’ll all end up in Hyundais
and Kias - hopeless, uninspiring, witless, soulless, gutless,
characterless white goods from the Pacific Rim. I’m sure they’ll feel
right at home."

Regards Mike.

Add comment
Mike Cawood 24 April 2005 15:16:36 [ permanent link ]
 "Mike Cawood, HND BIT" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:3d1d9fF6ql14fU­1@individual.net...>­ "April 24, 2005>
Jeremy Clarkson: Goodbye, Rover. Sorry, I won’t be shedding a tear>
From Times on line BTW.

Add comment
Huw 24 April 2005 15:45:01 [ permanent link ]
 
"Mike Cawood, HND BIT" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:3d1dghF6rjpf0U­1@individual.net...>­ "Mike Cawood, HND BIT" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message> news:3d1d9fF6ql14fU­1@individual.net...>­> "April 24, 2005>>
Jeremy Clarkson: Goodbye, Rover. Sorry, I wont be shedding a tear>>
From Times on line BTW.>

While I don't agree or disregard some of his silly comments, there is a
strong element of truth in the article. Although I have driven some
BL/MG/Rover cars over recent years, after owning a 1984 MG Montego for a
while and listening over and over again to the 'they have changed now' hype
before buying the heap, I vowed never to own one of their cars again, and I
never have. Never had any regrets either.

Huw


Add comment
Mike Cawood 24 April 2005 17:50:24 [ permanent link ]
 "Huw" <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.­uk> wrote in message
news:3d1lb1F6qb68nU­1@individual.net...>­
"Mike Cawood, HND BIT" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message> news:3d1dghF6rjpf0U­1@individual.net...>­ > "Mike Cawood, HND BIT" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message> > news:3d1d9fF6ql14fU­1@individual.net...>­ >> "April 24, 2005> >>
Jeremy Clarkson: Goodbye, Rover. Sorry, I won’t be shedding a tear> >>
From Times on line BTW.> >
While I don't agree or disregard some of his silly comments, there is
strong element of truth in the article. Although I have driven some> BL/MG/Rover cars over recent years, after owning a 1984 MG Montego for
while and listening over and over again to the 'they have changed now'
hype> before buying the heap, I vowed never to own one of their cars again,
and I> never have. Never had any regrets either.>
I had an MGB-GT once, then it fell to bits with rust, that was enough
for me.
Jeremy Clarkson is not silly IMO, he just goes a bit over the top!
Regards Mike.

Add comment
Petermcmillan Uk 24 April 2005 18:35:39 [ permanent link ]
 
Mike Cawood, HND BIT wrote:>
There is, however, one big problem with the collapse. Road safety. I> really do think that with no more Rovers we will see a dramatic
increase> in the number of crashes.>
You see, in the 1960s and 1970s all the bad drivers who had no
interest> in cars had Volvos. We knew to beware; just because a Volvo was in
left-hand lane, indicating left, didn't mean it was going to turn
left.>
Then Volvo went all sporty, forcing the weak and the feeble to look> elsewhere. Most ended up in Rovers, dithering about at junctions and> generally driving the wrong way down motorways. There's one Rover
that> has been stationary at the complicated double mini-roundabout in> Chipping Norton for 15 years, its driver paralysed with fear.>
Now, with Rover gone, I'm worried because there'll be no advance
warning> of a bad driver ahead. They could all be camouflaged in Fords or
BMWs.> And you'll have no idea until the moment of impact.

I think the 4x4's are taking over nicely, and if it's not a 4x4 it's
probably gonna be a VW Golf.

Add comment
Steve 24 April 2005 21:24:00 [ permanent link ]
 
Jeremy Clarkson: Goodbye, Rover. Sorry, I wont be shedding a tear>>
From Times on line BTW.>
Not sure of the numbers but when BMW sold the company to pheonix they left X
amount of cars that were already made. These cars were *free* to the new
management and so if sold would of made a 100% profit (as BMW used their
money to make them not Pheonix). What did they do? No-one knows, the cars
just dissapeared.

We cant blame Clarkson at all, the only people to blame are the management
for squandering any money that they had and not investing anything. They
probably sat back thinking that whatever happend to Rover the government
would bale them out. Well, thank-goodness that thay havent other than giving
some money to the workforce for redundancy.

At least there is some limited good news that Network Rail will be
interested in some of the engineering based work-force for work on the rail
ways.

Steve


Add comment
Joe 25 April 2005 00:00:27 [ permanent link ]
 All from a man who can't see past Aston Martin and Jaguar...!
Someone tell him to save his breath, he is getting boring.

Joe


Add comment
Derek 26 April 2005 02:02:26 [ permanent link ]
 
"Huw" <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.­uk> wrote in message
news:3d1lb1F6qb68nU­1@individual.net...>­
"Mike Cawood, HND BIT" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message> news:3d1dghF6rjpf0U­1@individual.net...>­ > "Mike Cawood, HND BIT" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message> > news:3d1d9fF6ql14fU­1@individual.net...>­ >> "April 24, 2005> >>
Jeremy Clarkson: Goodbye, Rover. Sorry, I won't be shedding a tear> >>
From Times on line BTW.> >
While I don't agree or disregard some of his silly comments, there is a> strong element of truth in the article. Although I have driven some> BL/MG/Rover cars over recent years, after owning a 1984 MG Montego for a> while and listening over and over again to the 'they have changed now'
hype> before buying the heap, I vowed never to own one of their cars again, and
never have. Never had any regrets either.>
Its sad that they had married a turbo a class engine management system and
clothed it in tinfoil then stuck on an MG badge I had the misfortune to
drive the car named after a chocolate bar shortly after its release (more
like escape) and after minutes realised just how bad it was fortunate for
Cadburys they must have also test drove the car and scrapped the choc bar as
a result
Derek


Add comment
Adrian 26 April 2005 11:02:20 [ permanent link ]
 John Redman (johnphilipredman@h­otmailREMOVETHEBLEED­INOBVIOUS.com)
gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :
Now if someone were to propose putting the TR6 back into production,> with a Toyota engine and a price tag of say 9,000...that could be> interesting.

<signs order form>
Add comment
Ben Blaney 26 April 2005 11:58:53 [ permanent link ]
 Adrian wrote:
John Redman (johnphilipredman@h­otmailREMOVETHEBLEED­INOBVIOUS.com)>gurgl­ed happily, sounding much like they were saying : >
Now if someone were to propose putting the TR6 back into production,>> with a Toyota engine and a price tag of say £9,000...that could be>> interesting. >
<signs order form>

<attempts to push to front of queue>

--
Ben Blaney
Add comment
Cml 26 April 2005 18:45:28 [ permanent link ]
 
I had an MGB-GT once, then it fell to bits with rust, that was enough> for me.> Jeremy Clarkson is not silly IMO, he just goes a bit over the top!> Regards Mike.

Well it was very old wasn't it? Most 30 years old cards have rusted to
nothing, it is a rare one that hasn't.

It's not actually a Rover either. :-)­
Add comment
Derek 30 April 2005 03:34:36 [ permanent link ]
 
"Adrian" <toomany2cvs@gmail.­com> wrote in message
news:Xns964451C8227­27adrianachapmanfree­is@204.153.244.170..­.> John Redman (johnphilipredman@h­otmailREMOVETHEBLEED­INOBVIOUS.com)> gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :>
Now if someone were to propose putting the TR6 back into production,> > with a Toyota engine and a price tag of say 9,000...that could be> > interesting.>
<signs order form>
I dunno so much , a large part of the attraction was the six pot engine it
sounded
superb in the Vitesse and GT6, bored out and injected in the 6 to give the
extra grunt (142 bhp)
sadly you lose that in a 4 cyl. A pity it was never developed further and
alloy head and
dohc would have been a good start maybe even 18 or24 valve?? and a proper
extractor exhaust instead
of the cast iron abortion?? are we looking 200bhp+
Derek


Add comment
John Redman 30 April 2005 04:19:15 [ permanent link ]
 
"Derek" <delwattsspamnoman@­cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:gwzce.13554$Y4­6.4732@newsfe1-win.n­tli.net...>
"Adrian" <toomany2cvs@gmail.­com> wrote in message> news:Xns964451C8227­27adrianachapmanfree­is@204.153.244.170..­.>> John Redman (johnphilipredman@h­otmailREMOVETHEBLEED­INOBVIOUS.com)>> gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :>>
Now if someone were to propose putting the TR6 back into production,>> > with a Toyota engine and a price tag of say 9,000...that could be>> > interesting.>>
<signs order form>> I dunno so much , a large part of the attraction was the six pot engine > it> sounded> superb in the Vitesse and GT6, bored out and injected in the 6 to give the> extra grunt (142 bhp)> sadly you lose that in a 4 cyl. A pity it was never developed further and> alloy head and> dohc would have been a good start maybe even 18 or24 valve?? and a proper> extractor exhaust instead> of the cast iron abortion?? are we looking 200bhp+> Derek

A large part of the drawback was the dodgy fuel injection and the fact that
the back axle couldn't handle 150bhp, so that the later 130bhp examples were
not actually slower off the line IIRC. So putting in a reliable 120bhp
engine is going to deal with both.

Of course it's a pipe dream because, although original TR6 bodyshells are
available again, I don't think a lot else is.


Add comment
Dave Plowman 30 April 2005 15:28:14 [ permanent link ]
 In article <SNdbe.8349$p06.248­1@newsfe3-gui.ntli.n­et>,
Derek <delwattsspamnoman@­cwcom.net> wrote:> Its sad that they had married a turbo a class engine management system> and clothed it in tinfoil then stuck on an MG badge I had the misfortune> to drive the car named after a chocolate bar shortly after its release> (more like escape) and after minutes realised just how bad it was > fortunate for Cadburys they must have also test drove the car and> scrapped the choc bar as a result

In the early '90s I bought a 3 year old 1.6 Montego Estate with minor
accident damage at auction for a song. It was filthy inside having been
used to carry dogs. Cleaned it up and fixed the damage - just a secondhand
door which I even got in the correct colour.

Used it for a year - including quite a bit of TV work where it was just
the right size for a two man crew and kit - and it was great. Very
pleasant to drive apart from heavy parking due to not having PAS. Fast
enough and economical too. Never gave any problems either once I'd fixed a
front wheel bearing which was mentioned on the auction description. Even
the automated SU carb worked a treat.

Sold it at no loss to a neighbour who had further good service out of it
for a couple of years before he moved - and dunno after that.

It - and the Maestro - had just about the ideal size interior for most
people. By brother loved Maestros as a bargain banger - again because of
the ideal interior size. Although he's moved on to Escorts now for this
purpose, he still reckons the Maestro was better.

--
*If God dropped acid, would he see people?

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.u­k London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Add comment
Dave Plowman 30 April 2005 15:30:37 [ permanent link ]
 In article <gwzce.13554$Y46.47­32@newsfe1-win.ntli.­net>,
Derek <delwattsspamnoman@­cwcom.net> wrote:> I dunno so much , a large part of the attraction was the six pot engine> it sounded superb in the Vitesse and GT6, bored out and injected in the> 6 to give the extra grunt (142 bhp) sadly you lose that in a 4 cyl. A> pity it was never developed further and alloy head and dohc would have> been a good start maybe even 18 or24 valve?? and a proper extractor> exhaust instead of the cast iron abortion?? are we looking 200bhp+

It was further developed. The OHC SD1 six was based on it, and some say
that engine could be easily tuned to give a lot more power.

--
*Pentium wise, pen and paper foolish *

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.u­k London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Add comment
Halmyre 30 April 2005 23:04:46 [ permanent link ]
 Dave Plowman (News) wrote:> In article <SNdbe.8349$p06.248­1@newsfe3-gui.ntli.n­et>,> Derek <delwattsspamnoman@­cwcom.net> wrote:>
Its sad that they had married a turbo a class engine management system>>and clothed it in tinfoil then stuck on an MG badge I had the misfortune>>to drive the car named after a chocolate bar shortly after its release>>(more like escape) and after minutes realised just how bad it was >>fortunate for Cadburys they must have also test drove the car and>>scrapped the choc bar as a result>
In the early '90s I bought a 3 year old 1.6 Montego Estate with minor> accident damage at auction for a song. It was filthy inside having been> used to carry dogs. Cleaned it up and fixed the damage - just a secondhand> door which I even got in the correct colour.>
Used it for a year - including quite a bit of TV work where it was just> the right size for a two man crew and kit - and it was great. Very> pleasant to drive apart from heavy parking due to not having PAS. Fast> enough and economical too. Never gave any problems either once I'd fixed a> front wheel bearing which was mentioned on the auction description. Even> the automated SU carb worked a treat.>
Sold it at no loss to a neighbour who had further good service out of it> for a couple of years before he moved - and dunno after that.>
It - and the Maestro - had just about the ideal size interior for most> people. By brother loved Maestros as a bargain banger - again because of> the ideal interior size. Although he's moved on to Escorts now for this> purpose, he still reckons the Maestro was better.>

My Dad had four Montegos - 2 1.6s, a 2 litre diesel and a Countryman. No
problems with any of them, and even lived to tell the tale when a
dickhead in a Granada/Scorpio t-boned him hoping to beat him out of a
junction.

I myself had a Maestro which both gave sterling service for many years.
The Maestro even survived a cam-belt breakage with no damage to the engine.

Austin/BMC/Rover/wh­atever don't deserve the laughter that's often aimed
at them. They were always more of an innovator than Ford or Vauxhall,
their cars were roomier and less 'tinny' and lasted longer than their
rivals.

Halmyre


Add comment
Dave Plowman 1 May 2005 15:08:56 [ permanent link ]
 In article <iFQce.19202$vU4.93­@newsfe6-win.ntli.ne­t>,
Halmyre <nospam@this.addres­s> wrote:> Austin/BMC/Rover/wh­atever don't deserve the laughter that's often aimed > at them. They were always more of an innovator than Ford or Vauxhall, > their cars were roomier and less 'tinny' and lasted longer than their > rivals.

I remember hiring an early Montego and it left the equivalent Ford or
Vauxhall for dead in a straight line, and just a spec in the mirror round
the twisty bits. ;-)­

--
*I pretend to work. - they pretend to pay me.

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.u­k London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Add comment
Huw 1 May 2005 20:42:36 [ permanent link ]
 
"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.­uk> wrote in message
news:4d643197d9dave­@davenoise.co.uk...>­ In article <iFQce.19202$vU4.93­@newsfe6-win.ntli.ne­t>,> Halmyre <nospam@this.addres­s> wrote:>> Austin/BMC/Rover/wh­atever don't deserve the laughter that's often aimed>> at them. They were always more of an innovator than Ford or Vauxhall,>> their cars were roomier and less 'tinny' and lasted longer than their>> rivals.>
I remember hiring an early Montego and it left the equivalent Ford or> Vauxhall for dead in a straight line, and just a spec in the mirror round> the twisty bits. ;-)­>

I traded a Mk1 Golf GTi 1.8 for my MG Montego and much preferred Monty as a
daily drive. Unfortunately it was touch and go whether it would ever
complete a journey without incident, or even if it would complete the
journey. It was by far the least reliable car I've ever owned, and I've
owned a few.

Huw


Add comment
Steve Firth 2 May 2005 02:45:34 [ permanent link ]
 John Redman <johnphilipredman@h­otmailREMOVETHEBLEED­INOBVIOUS.com> wrote:
The only grain of truth in Clarkson's statement is that the Triumph V8 as> initially sold was unreliable. This is beyond argument; however, it has> subsequently been fixed, and derivatives did OK in the Saab 99 and TR7.

Err, you're talking bollocks here, the SAAB AFAIK was never shipped with
a V8 and the V8 in the TR7 (8) was a Rover.

Clarkson's reference to the V8 being two Dolomite engines nailed
together isn't far off the truth and you seem to have the bizarre view
that an engine is designed to fit a car rather than the car being
designed around the engine, at least that is the only way I can
interpret your comment about the Rover/Triumph engine debacle.
Now if someone were to propose putting the TR6 back into production, with a> Toyota engine and a price tag of say £9,000...that could be interesting.

Only to a few bearded men who smoke pipes, ear tweed jackets and drink
beer with twigs in. If you want a better car than a TR6 there's the
Honda S2000. If you want a vague feel of British sports car in a
reliable car there's the MX5.

There are already replica Healeys in production, it was always a better
car than any TR yet the sales figures are hardly going to set the world
alight. We've moved on, and being honest modern cars are better than the
tat of old.

--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Add comment
Sor 2 May 2005 03:09:07 [ permanent link ]
 <uk.rec.cars.misc , Steve Firth , %steve%@malloc.co.u­k>
<1gvwpr2.2f85gg12lv­745N%%steve%@malloc.­co.uk>
<Sun, 1 May 2005 23:45:34 +0100>
Now if someone were to propose putting the TR6 back into production, with a> > Toyota engine and a price tag of say £9,000...that could be interesting.>
Only to a few bearded men who smoke pipes, ear tweed jackets and drink> beer with twigs in. If you want a better car than a TR6 there's the> Honda S2000. If you want a vague feel of British sports car in a> reliable car there's the MX5.>

I'd love it if ford was to bring the old style granada back into
production & stuff like this probably isnt as daft as it sounds .

www.sparesorrepair.­co.uk/photos/display­image.php?album=sear­ch&cat=0&pos=
0

The teenagers at the time could now be anything from middle management
to the top men in whatever field they are in and the nostalgia part of
their youth shouldnt be just written off as its the oldies who
appreciate style and class ..... and a car that doesnt look like a jelly
mould .

Will never happen of course .


--
www.sparesorrepair.­co.uk
(buy or sell mot failures , spares , or cars with a mot)
Add comment
Nick Mason 3 May 2005 00:06:37 [ permanent link ]
 In article <1gvwpr2.2f85gg12lv­745N%%steve%@malloc.­co.uk>, %steve%
@malloc.co.uk says...> John Redman <johnphilipredman@h­otmailREMOVETHEBLEED­INOBVIOUS.com> wrote:>
The only grain of truth in Clarkson's statement is that the Triumph V8 as> > initially sold was unreliable. This is beyond argument; however, it has> > subsequently been fixed, and derivatives did OK in the Saab 99 and TR7.>
Err, you're talking bollocks here, the SAAB AFAIK was never shipped with> a V8 and the V8 in the TR7 (8) was a Rover.>
Clarkson's reference to the V8 being two Dolomite engines nailed> together isn't far off the truth and you seem to have the bizarre view> that an engine is designed to fit a car rather than the car being> designed around the engine, at least that is the only way I can> interpret your comment about the Rover/Triumph engine debacle.
The V8 was never two Dolomite engines nailed together. It was originally
an aluminium block 3530cc engine designed by Buick in the early 60s. At
the time America was wary of Aluminium engines and wasn't ready for such
a small, by US standards, engine and the design languished somewhat
until Rover persuaded GM to sell them the rights to manufacture it in
the UK, the rest is history.

This engine was light, compact and under stressed meaning the tuning
potential was almost infinite.
Now if someone were to propose putting the TR6 back into production, with a> > Toyota engine and a price tag of say £9,000...that could be interesting.>
Only to a few bearded men who smoke pipes, ear tweed jackets and drink> beer with twigs in. If you want a better car than a TR6 there's the> Honda S2000. If you want a vague feel of British sports car in a> reliable car there's the MX5.

Now this I do agree with! :O)
There are already replica Healeys in production, it was always a better> car than any TR yet the sales figures are hardly going to set the world> alight. We've moved on, and being honest modern cars are better than the> tat of old.>
Indeed they are.

--
Regards

Nick
Add comment


SteveH 3 May 2005 00:52:46 [ permanent link ]
 Nick Mason <noemail@noemail.co­m> wrote:
Err, you're talking bollocks here, the SAAB AFAIK was never shipped with> > a V8 and the V8 in the TR7 (8) was a Rover.> >
Clarkson's reference to the V8 being two Dolomite engines nailed> > together isn't far off the truth and you seem to have the bizarre view> > that an engine is designed to fit a car rather than the car being> > designed around the engine, at least that is the only way I can> > interpret your comment about the Rover/Triumph engine debacle.> The V8 was never two Dolomite engines nailed together. It was originally> an aluminium block 3530cc engine designed by Buick in the early 60s. At> the time America was wary of Aluminium engines and wasn't ready for such> a small, by US standards, engine and the design languished somewhat > until Rover persuaded GM to sell them the rights to manufacture it in> the UK, the rest is history.>
This engine was light, compact and under stressed meaning the tuning > potential was almost infinite.

I think you're confusing the Rover/Buick V8 with the Triumph '2 Dolly
engines nailed together) V8.
--
Steve H 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo'
http://www.italianc­ar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - MZ ETZ300
Alfa 75 TSpark - Passat 1.8T - Golf Cabrio - COSOC KOTL
BoTAFOT #87 - BoTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC #
Add comment
Guest 3 May 2005 01:28:20 [ permanent link ]
 Apparently on date Mon, 02 May 2005 20:06:37 GMT, Nick Mason
<noemail@noemail.co­m> said:
In article <1gvwpr2.2f85gg12lv­745N%%steve%@malloc.­co.uk>, %steve%>@malloc.co.­uk says...>> John Redman <johnphilipredman@h­otmailREMOVETHEBLEED­INOBVIOUS.com> wrote:>>
The only grain of truth in Clarkson's statement is that the Triumph V8 as>> > initially sold was unreliable. This is beyond argument; however, it has>> > subsequently been fixed, and derivatives did OK in the Saab 99 and TR7.>>
Err, you're talking bollocks here, the SAAB AFAIK was never shipped with>> a V8 and the V8 in the TR7 (8) was a Rover.>>
Clarkson's reference to the V8 being two Dolomite engines nailed>> together isn't far off the truth and you seem to have the bizarre view>> that an engine is designed to fit a car rather than the car being>> designed around the engine, at least that is the only way I can>> interpret your comment about the Rover/Triumph engine debacle.>The V8 was never two Dolomite engines nailed together. It was originally >an aluminium block 3530cc engine designed by Buick in the early 60s. At

The Rover v8 was bought in from Buick, ergo the reason why the P5 / P6 was also
the P5B / P6B, the B standing for Buick.

Triumph - and they put it into the Stag at least - designed a v8 3 litre engine
that was very good (potentially better) but lacked any sort of development for
cost reasons and gained a well-deserved reputation for unreliability. Quite
different from the Rover v8 engine.

The Triumph v8 engine was never put into any MG as far as I know, but it
certainly might have been. It might even have fitted better into the MGB.

I think both Triumph and Buick / Rover engines were and are excellent and I
have an SD1 engine in my TR7, which is what the TR8 got and I don't believe
this did it any harm at all compared to getting the Triumph one.

HST, the v8 originally found in the Stag is a dead ringer for two Dolomites
bolted together, whenever I've seen one. Even down to the slant head, which is
hardly surprising I suppose.


Add comment


John Redman 3 May 2005 02:38:25 [ permanent link ]
 
"Halmyre" <nospam@this.addres­s> wrote
Austin/BMC/Rover/wh­atever don't deserve the laughter that's often aimed at > them. They were always more of an innovator than Ford or Vauxhall, their > cars were roomier and less 'tinny' and lasted longer than their rivals.

Hmm, debatable. I have it on very good authority that the flue down the
sides of Maestros and Montegos was there because it enabled the cars to be
made out of thinner metal than would otherwise have been necessary. Very
tinny, if so.


Add comment
John Redman 3 May 2005 02:41:54 [ permanent link ]
 
"Steve Firth" <%steve%@malloc.co.­uk> wrote
The only grain of truth in Clarkson's statement is that the Triumph V8 as>> initially sold was unreliable. This is beyond argument; however, it has>> subsequently been fixed, and derivatives did OK in the Saab 99 and TR7.>
Err, you're talking bollocks here, the SAAB AFAIK was never shipped with> a V8 and the V8 in the TR7 (8) was a Rover.

Read what I wrote. Clue: "derivatives". The Saab engine was a V4 based on
hal;f a Stag engine and the TR7 engine was one bank of a Stag engine. Both
were derived from the V8 which was the first iteration of the intended
series of engines.
Clarkson's reference to the V8 being two Dolomite engines nailed> together isn't far off the truth and you seem to have the bizarre view> that an engine is designed to fit a car rather than the car being> designed around the engine, at least that is the only way I can> interpret your comment about the Rover/Triumph engine debacle.

Er, Clarkson's comment ignores the fact that the Stag and its engine
*predated* the Dolomite.


Add comment


Dave Plowman 3 May 2005 02:54:02 [ permanent link ]
 In article <MPG.1ce098aba78808­4f98968b@news.ntlwor­ld.com>,
Nick Mason <noemail@noemail.co­m> wrote:> > Clarkson's reference to the V8 being two Dolomite engines nailed> > together isn't far off the truth and you seem to have the bizarre view> > that an engine is designed to fit a car rather than the car being> > designed around the engine, at least that is the only way I can> > interpret your comment about the Rover/Triumph engine debacle.
The V8 was never two Dolomite engines nailed together. It was originally > an aluminium block 3530cc engine designed by Buick in the early 60s. At > the time America was wary of Aluminium engines and wasn't ready for such > a small, by US standards, engine and the design languished somewhat > until Rover persuaded GM to sell them the rights to manufacture it in > the UK, the rest is history.
This engine was light, compact and under stressed meaning the tuning > potential was almost infinite.

Hardly, given it was a pushrod unit. Maximum state of production tune was
only about 60 bhp per litre. Some production A-series cast iron units beat
that with carburettors.

The Stag unit, being OHC, would easily have exceeded that with fuel
injection.

--
*Always drink upstream from the herd *

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.u­k London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Add comment
Dave Plowman 3 May 2005 03:11:02 [ permanent link ]
 In article <d56a29$l4v$1@news8­.svr.pol.co.uk>,
John Redman <johnphilipredman@h­otmailREMOVETHEBLEED­INOBVIOUS.com> wrote:> > Err, you're talking bollocks here, the SAAB AFAIK was never shipped> > with a V8 and the V8 in the TR7 (8) was a Rover.
Read what I wrote. Clue: "derivatives". The Saab engine was a V4 based> on hal;f a Stag engine and the TR7 engine was one bank of a Stag> engine. Both were derived from the V8 which was the first iteration of> the intended series of engines.

More bollocks.

The Saab V4 was a German Ford engine.

Saab later used the four cylinder Triumph engine as fitted to the
Dolomite. Then leased the design and improved it for their own use, as the
BL engines weren't good enough - and it was the basis of many later Saab
engines.

The only 'V' version of this engine was the one fitted to the Stag - and
it came afterwards.

--
*The problem with the gene pool is that there is no lifeguard *

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.u­k London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Add comment
Martin 3 May 2005 12:19:46 [ permanent link ]
 
Hardly, given it was a pushrod unit. Maximum state of production tune was>>only about 60 bhp per litre. Some production A-series cast iron units beat>that with carburettors.>>
The Stag unit, being OHC, would easily have exceeded that with fuel>>injection.

The location of the cams makes little difference, the head design has more
effect


Add comment
Martin 3 May 2005 12:20:32 [ permanent link ]
 
Read what I wrote. Clue: "derivatives". The Saab engine was a V4 based on>>hal;f a Stag engine and the TR7 engine was one bank of a Stag engine. Both>>were derived from the V8 which was the first iteration of the intended>>series of engines.

The I4s which replaced the V4s were Triumph based, the V4 was the Ford unit


Add comment
Dave Plowman 4 May 2005 00:51:25 [ permanent link ]
 In article <d57j17$1st$1$8300d­ec7@news.demon.co.uk­>,
Martin <spamspam@spam.spam­> wrote:> >>The Stag unit, being OHC, would easily have exceeded that with fuel> >>injection.
The location of the cams makes little difference, the head design has> more effect

There's no point in using OHC unless you need high revs - and the higher
the revs the more BHP, everything being equal.

--
*Even a blind pig stumbles across an acorn now and again *

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.u­k London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Add comment
Mike Cawood 4 May 2005 03:04:00 [ permanent link ]
 "Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.­uk> wrote in message
news:4d643197d9dave­@davenoise.co.uk...>­ In article <iFQce.19202$vU4.93­@newsfe6-win.ntli.ne­t>,> Halmyre <nospam@this.addres­s> wrote:> > Austin/BMC/Rover/wh­atever don't deserve the laughter that's often
aimed> > at them. They were always more of an innovator than Ford or
Vauxhall,> > their cars were roomier and less 'tinny' and lasted longer than
their> > rivals.>
I remember hiring an early Montego and it left the equivalent Ford or> Vauxhall for dead in a straight line, and just a spec in the mirror
round> the twisty bits. ;-)­>
Due to using a very convex mirror, no doubt.
Regards Mike.

Add comment
Nick Mason 4 May 2005 16:29:18 [ permanent link ]
 In article <1gvyff1.hm50uxxfgt­v4N%steve@italiancar­.co.uk>,
steve@italiancar.co­.uk says...
I think you're confusing the Rover/Buick V8 with the Triumph '2 Dolly> engines nailed together) V8.>
You know, I really need to read the postings properly. D'oh!

:O)

--
Regards

Nick
Add comment
Grimly Curmudgeon 5 May 2005 04:11:56 [ permanent link ]
 We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "John Redman"
<johnphilipredman@h­otmailREMOVETHEBLEED­INOBVIOUS.com> saying something
like:
Read what I wrote. Clue: "derivatives". The Saab engine was a V4 based on >hal;f a Stag engine and the TR7 engine was one bank of a Stag engine. Both >were derived from the V8 which was the first iteration of the intended >series of engines.

Wow. That deserves some sort of prize.
--

Dave
Add comment
Steve Firth 7 May 2005 01:03:53 [ permanent link ]
 John Redman <johnphilipredman@h­otmailREMOVETHEBLEED­INOBVIOUS.com> wrote:
"Steve Firth" <%steve%@malloc.co.­uk> wrote>
The only grain of truth in Clarkson's statement is that the Triumph V8 as> >> initially sold was unreliable. This is beyond argument; however, it has> >> subsequently been fixed, and derivatives did OK in the Saab 99 and TR7.> >
Err, you're talking bollocks here, the SAAB AFAIK was never shipped with> > a V8 and the V8 in the TR7 (8) was a Rover.>
Read what I wrote.

I did, that's why I can tell you it was shite.

--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Add comment
RichardK 7 May 2005 01:38:37 [ permanent link ]
 Steve Firth wrote:> John Redman <johnphilipredman@h­otmailREMOVETHEBLEED­INOBVIOUS.com> wrote:>
"Steve Firth" <%steve%@malloc.co.­uk> wrote>>
The only grain of truth in Clarkson's statement is that the Triumph V8 as>>>>initially sold was unreliable. This is beyond argument; however, it has>>>>subsequently­ been fixed, and derivatives did OK in the Saab 99 and TR7.>>>
Err, you're talking bollocks here, the SAAB AFAIK was never shipped with>>>a V8 and the V8 in the TR7 (8) was a Rover.>>
Read what I wrote. >
I did, that's why I can tell you it was shite.

And how. The Triumph V8 might be vaguely related to the Ricardo designed
engine that saw service in the Triumph and (in design) the SAAB, but
it's not a derivative at all.

Richard

--
RichardK - 1980s in a can. http://www.dmc12.de­mon.co.uk/music/
Retro computing - http://www.dmc12.de­mon.co.uk/retrotech/­
Cars - 2004 Beetle Cabrio, 1989 Supra 3.0i, 1990 Sera
MidiGuitar, Enterprise 128, AU/X. Apple 77-04. See links ;)
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CarGuru > Open discussion > Jeremy Clarkson: Goodbye, Rover. Sorry, I won’t be shedding a tear 7 May 2005 01:38:37
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