DG automatic qustion

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CarGuru > Open discussion > DG automatic qustion 3 April 2005 16:48:25

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DG automatic qustion
John Poulos 2 April 2005 03:48:29
	I've been adjusting the throttle pressure on the Speedster, trying to move the shift points up. I've lengthened the rod about a half inch but it still shifts into 3rd at 20-22 MPH under normal driving. It seems early to me, since the engine lugs a bit at that low a speed. When is your DG shifting into 3rd ? -- JP/Maryland Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/ 64 Challenger (Green Wrapper) 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk #2 62 GT Hawk (Ind. Div) 56 Golden Hawk 55 Speedster 50 2R 10 truck
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Grumpy au Contraire 2 April 2005 04:38:04 [ permanent link ]
	Methinks you hafta shorten the rod to increase shift points... JT John Poulos wrote:> I've been adjusting the throttle pressure on the Speedster, trying> to move the shift points up. I've lengthened the rod about a half inch> but it still shifts into 3rd at 20-22 MPH under normal driving. It seems> early to me, since the engine lugs a bit at that low a speed. When is> your DG shifting into 3rd ?> --> JP/Maryland> Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com> My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/> 64 Challenger (Green Wrapper)> 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk #2> 62 GT Hawk (Ind. Div)> 56 Golden Hawk> 55 Speedster> 50 2R 10 truck
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John Poulos 2 April 2005 04:50:03 [ permanent link ]
	I thought the rod moved forward as you increase the throttle. If I'm right, than making it longer would make the tranny think you are giving it less throttle. Wait, you might be right, I think. <g> Grumpy au Contraire wrote:> Methinks you hafta shorten the rod to increase shift points...> John Poulos wrote:> I've been adjusting the throttle pressure on the Speedster, trying>>to move the shift points up. I've lengthened the rod about a half inch>>but it still shifts into 3rd at 20-22 MPH under normal driving. It seems>>early to me, since the engine lugs a bit at that low a speed. When is>>your DG shifting into 3rd ?>>-->>JP/Maryland>>Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com>>My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/>>64 Challenger (Green Wrapper)>>63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk #2>>62 GT Hawk (Ind. Div)>>56 Golden Hawk>>55 Speedster>>50 2R 10 truck -- JP/Maryland Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/ 64 Challenger (Green Wrapper) 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk #2 62 GT Hawk (Ind. Div) 56 Golden Hawk 55 Speedster 50 2R 10 truck
		Add comment


Ron Butts 2 April 2005 04:58:22 [ permanent link ]
	John Go to your shop manual for reference and adjust the throttle bellcrank stop to 27/64 along with the adjustment of the carb rod. Then start to shorten the throttle rod to transmission until you get the desired shift points under normal throttle pressure when driving. Ron "John Poulos" <avanti@erols.com> wrote in message news:3cOdnfbuW5RQQNDfRVn-ow@comcast.com...> I've been adjusting the throttle pressure on the Speedster, trying to > move the shift points up. I've lengthened the rod about a half inch but it > still shifts into 3rd at 20-22 MPH under normal driving. It seems early to > me, since the engine lugs a bit at that low a speed. When is your DG > shifting into 3rd ?> -- > JP/Maryland> Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com> My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/> 64 Challenger (Green Wrapper)> 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk #2> 62 GT Hawk (Ind. Div)> 56 Golden Hawk> 55 Speedster> 50 2R 10 truck
		Add comment


Bill Glass 2 April 2005 05:32:02 [ permanent link ]
	John Poulos wrote: I thought the rod moved forward as you increase the throttle. If I'm > right, than making it longer would make the tranny think you are giving > it less throttle. Wait, you might be right, I think. <g> Making the rod longer delays the shift, and build pressure, shortening the rod, makes the shifting closer together. By increasing the delaying the shift, it requires more pressure to get it to go into a higher gear, and makes the shift much more positive. If too short a rod, the shifts come fast and you loose some low speed oomph, because when you need it, your already in high or lock up. Been down that road too many times Bill
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Nate Nagel 2 April 2005 05:58:26 [ permanent link ]
	I thought it was 17/64? or is the bellcrank adjusted differently for a DG? nate (no, my memory is not that good... I've just been doing the same thing recently) Ron Butts wrote: John> Go to your shop manual for reference and adjust the throttle bellcrank stop > to 27/64 along with the adjustment of the carb rod. Then start to shorten > the throttle rod to transmission until you get the desired shift points > under normal throttle pressure when driving.> Ron> "John Poulos" <avanti@erols.com> wrote in message > news:3cOdnfbuW5RQQNDfRVn-ow@comcast.com...> I've been adjusting the throttle pressure on the Speedster, trying to >>move the shift points up. I've lengthened the rod about a half inch but it >>still shifts into 3rd at 20-22 MPH under normal driving. It seems early to >>me, since the engine lugs a bit at that low a speed. When is your DG >>shifting into 3rd ?>>-- >>JP/Maryland>>Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com>>My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/>>64 Challenger (Green Wrapper)>>63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk #2>>62 GT Hawk (Ind. Div)>>56 Golden Hawk>>55 Speedster>>50 2R 10 truck > -- replace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel
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John Poulos 2 April 2005 06:00:04 [ permanent link ]
	It's different on mine for sure, I have a anti-creep switch too. Nate Nagel wrote:> I thought it was 17/64? or is the bellcrank adjusted differently for a DG?> nate> (no, my memory is not that good... I've just been doing the same thing > recently)> Ron Butts wrote:> John>> Go to your shop manual for reference and adjust the throttle bellcrank >> stop to 27/64 along with the adjustment of the carb rod. Then start >> to shorten the throttle rod to transmission until you get the desired >> shift points under normal throttle pressure when driving.>> Ron>> "John Poulos" <avanti@erols.com> wrote in message >> news:3cOdnfbuW5RQQNDfRVn-ow@comcast.com...>> I've been adjusting the throttle pressure on the Speedster, trying >>> to move the shift points up. I've lengthened the rod about a half >>> inch but it still shifts into 3rd at 20-22 MPH under normal driving. >>> It seems early to me, since the engine lugs a bit at that low a >>> speed. When is your DG shifting into 3rd ?>>> -- >>> JP/Maryland>>> Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com>>> My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/>>> 64 Challenger (Green Wrapper)>>> 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk #2>>> 62 GT Hawk (Ind. Div)>>> 56 Golden Hawk>>> 55 Speedster>>> 50 2R 10 truck >> -- JP/Maryland Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/ 64 Challenger (Green Wrapper) 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk #2 62 GT Hawk (Ind. Div) 56 Golden Hawk 55 Speedster 50 2R 10 truck
		Add comment


Dexter 2 April 2005 06:28:44 [ permanent link ]
	My '55 President shifts into 3rd at about 35mph. The 1-2 shift is the wierd one. "John Poulos" <avanti@erols.com> wrote in message news:3cOdnfbuW5RQQNDfRVn-ow@comcast.com...> I've been adjusting the throttle pressure on the Speedster, trying> to move the shift points up. I've lengthened the rod about a half inch> but it still shifts into 3rd at 20-22 MPH under normal driving. It seems> early to me, since the engine lugs a bit at that low a speed. When is> your DG shifting into 3rd ?> -- > JP/Maryland> Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com> My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/> 64 Challenger (Green Wrapper)> 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk #2> 62 GT Hawk (Ind. Div)> 56 Golden Hawk> 55 Speedster> 50 2R 10 truck
		Add comment


Keith Kichefski 2 April 2005 15:40:47 [ permanent link ]
	The biggest mistake you can make, is to assume that tricks which work on a Flightomatic, will also work on a DG. It is a different sort of animal entirely. Due to all the different changes, it is best to have the 1955 shop manual, which covers the units which start out in first. The thin black manual with silver lettering is for older units, typically for your units with the second gear start. All of the band servos were different on the older units. When you try to shorten the kickdown rod on a true three-speed, such as a DG150M or DG250M eventually you cross the line where the unit will not drop into first at a stop. The reason being, the vertical rod in the transmission has a flat spot on it, sort of a 'D' shape. The governor needs to interact with this flat spot, in order to drop into first. If the rod is too short, you move off of this flat spot and the governor thinks the accelerator is part way down and the car is moving. I would suspect the brass governor is worn at the pivots, causing the early upshift. This is a very common item to wear out and usually the first thing to act up in a DG. They are easy to replace, as they are contained in the rear housing. No need to drop the transmission. (It should be possible to use larger pivot pins after resizing the holes, to take out the wear in the flyweight governor.) Other items of interest. You cannot lock second gear on a DG three speed like you can on the flightomatic, by going from D to L. It will drop back into low, no matter what speed you are going. The parking pawls are weak, don't put a lot of faith in them on a hill. If you do sonic drags by racing the engine in park or neutral, the lock up torque converter will try to engage making a horrible clunking sound. All the anti-creep does when it is working, is hold line pressure on the rear brakes. Disconnecting the wires will not make it shift different. (They were standard on Commanders and optional on Champions.) When a DG is low on fluid, they will make a whining sound as you stop, as the pump sucks air. When checking the fluid level, it is best done running, warm and in drive with the brake on. They are not overly sensitive to different types of fluid. The early units used 10W motor oil, before there was a good standard for Type A fluid. (I use Dexron types in mine, on a complete fill, including the convertor.) These were very good transmissions, well thought out, but were too expensive in their day. Roughly a $200 option on a $2000 car. KK
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John Poulos 2 April 2005 18:21:18 [ permanent link ]
	Wow, thanks for that information. Can shorten the rod and see what happens to the shift points as long as I don't loose first gear start ? keith_kichefski@wed.dresser.com wrote:> The biggest mistake you can make, is to assume that tricks which work> on a Flightomatic, will also work on a DG. It is a different sort of> animal entirely.> Due to all the different changes, it is best to have the 1955 shop> manual, which covers the units which start out in first. The thin> black manual with silver lettering is for older units, typically for> your units with the second gear start. All of the band servos were> different on the older units.> When you try to shorten the kickdown rod on a true three-speed, such as> a DG150M or DG250M eventually you cross the line where the unit will> not drop into first at a stop. The reason being, the vertical rod in> the transmission has a flat spot on it, sort of a 'D' shape. The> governor needs to interact with this flat spot, in order to drop into> first. If the rod is too short, you move off of this flat spot and the> governor thinks the accelerator is part way down and the car is moving.> I would suspect the brass governor is worn at the pivots, causing the> early upshift. This is a very common item to wear out and usually the> first thing to act up in a DG. They are easy to replace, as they are> contained in the rear housing. No need to drop the transmission. (It> should be possible to use larger pivot pins after resizing the holes,> to take out the wear in the flyweight governor.)> Other items of interest. You cannot lock second gear on a DG three> speed like you can on the flightomatic, by going from D to L. It will> drop back into low, no matter what speed you are going.> The parking pawls are weak, don't put a lot of faith in them on a hill.> If you do sonic drags by racing the engine in park or neutral, the lock> up torque converter will try to engage making a horrible clunking> sound.> All the anti-creep does when it is working, is hold line pressure on> the rear brakes. Disconnecting the wires will not make it shift> different. (They were standard on Commanders and optional on> Champions.)> When a DG is low on fluid, they will make a whining sound as you stop,> as the pump sucks air.> When checking the fluid level, it is best done running, warm and in> drive with the brake on.> They are not overly sensitive to different types of fluid. The early> units used 10W motor oil, before there was a good standard for Type A> fluid. (I use Dexron types in mine, on a complete fill, including the> convertor.)> These were very good transmissions, well thought out, but were too> expensive in their day. Roughly a $200 option on a $2000 car.> KK> -- JP/Maryland Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/ 64 Challenger (Green Wrapper) 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk #2 62 GT Hawk (Ind. Div) 56 Golden Hawk 55 Speedster 50 2R 10 truck
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Keith Kichefski 2 April 2005 21:18:11 [ permanent link ]
	You will gain very little. If you take the rod off at the rear, you can turn the shaft by hand. You will be able to feel the difference in tension, once it moves off the flat 'D' shaped section inside. If you adjust it by feel, allow a little slack. If you don't, it may work OK when cold, but when hot, you can loose first as everything expands a bit. When you said it feels like the engine is lugging, that is somewhat normal. It is not uncommon with light throttle to have them shift from first to second in as little as 15 feet. Going into third at less than 25 mph is not unexpected. I have been in Jaguar sedans with DG automatic, and they act the same as a Studebaker. What causes the lugging sensation, is third is direct drive through a clutch disc in the convertor. First and second 'only' has the benefit of torque multiplication in the convertor. Gas mileage is very good with that Automatic Drive, because there is no slipage in third. Studebaker was planning ahead for $2.50 gal. gasoline <g>. KK In response to: John Poulos wrote:> Wow, thanks for that information. Can shorten the rod and see what> happens to the shift points as long as I don't loose first gear start ? JP/Maryland> Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com> My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/> 64 Challenger (Green Wrapper)> 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk #2> 62 GT Hawk (Ind. Div)> 56 Golden Hawk> 55 Speedster> 50 2R 10 truck
		Add comment


John Poulos 2 April 2005 23:32:43 [ permanent link ]
	Ok, let me see if I follow you. Remove the rod at the rear, than rotate the lever until I feel a flat spot, than adjust the rod a little long before dropping it in ? keith_kichefski@wed.dresser.com wrote:> You will gain very little. If you take the rod off at the rear, you> can turn the shaft by hand. You will be able to feel the difference in> tension, once it moves off the flat 'D' shaped section inside. If you> adjust it by feel, allow a little slack. If you don't, it may work OK> when cold, but when hot, you can loose first as everything expands a> bit.> When you said it feels like the engine is lugging, that is somewhat> normal. It is not uncommon with light throttle to have them shift from> first to second in as little as 15 feet. Going into third at less than> 25 mph is not unexpected. I have been in Jaguar sedans with DG> automatic, and they act the same as a Studebaker. What causes the> lugging sensation, is third is direct drive through a clutch disc in> the convertor. First and second 'only' has the benefit of torque> multiplication in the convertor.> Gas mileage is very good with that Automatic Drive, because there is no> slipage in third. Studebaker was planning ahead for $2.50 gal.> gasoline <g>.> KK> In response to:> John Poulos wrote:> Wow, thanks for that information. Can shorten the rod and see what>>happens to the shift points as long as I don't loose first gear start> ?> JP/Maryland>>Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com>>My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/>>64 Challenger (Green Wrapper)>>63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk #2>>62 GT Hawk (Ind. Div)>>56 Golden Hawk>>55 Speedster>>50 2R 10 truck> -- JP/Maryland Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/ 64 Challenger (Green Wrapper) 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk #2 62 GT Hawk (Ind. Div) 56 Golden Hawk 55 Speedster 50 2R 10 truck
		Add comment


John Poulos 3 April 2005 02:28:31 [ permanent link ]
	I could not feel a flat spot, but the arm swung forward loosely until it became spring loaded from something in the transmission. I adjusted all the slack out and everything is fine. BTW you do shorten the rod to increase pressure and up shift speed. keith_kichefski@wed.dresser.com wrote:> You will gain very little. If you take the rod off at the rear, you> can turn the shaft by hand. You will be able to feel the difference in> tension, once it moves off the flat 'D' shaped section inside. If you> adjust it by feel, allow a little slack. If you don't, it may work OK> when cold, but when hot, you can loose first as everything expands a> bit.> When you said it feels like the engine is lugging, that is somewhat> normal. It is not uncommon with light throttle to have them shift from> first to second in as little as 15 feet. Going into third at less than> 25 mph is not unexpected. I have been in Jaguar sedans with DG> automatic, and they act the same as a Studebaker. What causes the> lugging sensation, is third is direct drive through a clutch disc in> the convertor. First and second 'only' has the benefit of torque> multiplication in the convertor.> Gas mileage is very good with that Automatic Drive, because there is no> slipage in third. Studebaker was planning ahead for $2.50 gal.> gasoline <g>.> KK> In response to:> John Poulos wrote:> Wow, thanks for that information. Can shorten the rod and see what>>happens to the shift points as long as I don't loose first gear start> ?> JP/Maryland>>Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com>>My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/>>64 Challenger (Green Wrapper)>>63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk #2>>62 GT Hawk (Ind. Div)>>56 Golden Hawk>>55 Speedster>>50 2R 10 truck> -- JP/Maryland Studebaker On the Net http://stude.com My Ebay items:http://www.stude.com/EBAY/ 64 Challenger (Green Wrapper) 63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk #2 62 GT Hawk (Ind. Div) 56 Golden Hawk 55 Speedster 50 2R 10 truck
		Add comment


Bill Glass 3 April 2005 02:37:25 [ permanent link ]
	John Poulos wrote:> Ok, let me see if I follow you. Remove the rod at the rear, than rotate > the lever until I feel a flat spot, than adjust the rod a little long > before dropping it in ? There are some rods, that are rods within rods. On the56 rod You take a small pair if visegrips and gently hold the outer part of the thicker rod. Then you loosen the lock nut at one end of the rod, and then adjust the length of. Tighten and put the truen spring back on. Bill
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Keith Kichefski 3 April 2005 16:48:25 [ permanent link ]
	I think you figured it out. When the rod swings freely, that is the range of the flat spot. When you start to feel spring tension, you are riding up on the edge of the 'D' shaped part. On thing I had not mentioned, but may be of interest. When adjusting the servo bands, the Studebaker manual uses various special tools. These tools have a pre-set breakaway torque. If you can view an old Motor's Auto Repair Manual, it gives torque wrench values. I use their 24th. edition from 1961. Initially I was in denial and thought...if it works, don't mess with it. On mine it turned out that the bands really needed to be adjusted, as they were loose. The car was much improved after adjusting the bands. KK John Poulos wrote:> > Ok, let me see if I follow you. Remove the rod at the rear, than rotate> > the lever until I feel a flat spot, than adjust the rod a little long > > before dropping it in ?
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CarGuru > Open discussion > DG automatic qustion 3 April 2005 16:48:25

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DG automatic qustion

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