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New Toyota/Lexus Models Coming Out In The Next Few Years?
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CarGuru > Open discussion > New Toyota/Lexus Models Coming Out In The Next Few Years? 29 April 2005 20:41:41
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New Toyota/Lexus Models Coming Out In The Next Few Years?

Car Guy 18 April 2005 01:05:04
 I am planning on trading in my 2002 Camry in a few years when it gets to
about 200,000 KM or 124,000 miles to get something more smaller, sportier,
and decent in winter. Right now, IS 300 is the only thing I see in the
Canadian market that looks appealing.

Anyone know of something else that is coming out?


Add comment
Mark Klebanoff 18 April 2005 03:21:04 [ permanent link ]
 If decent in the winter is important, you probably ought not look at
the IS. It is definitely smaller and sportier than the Camry. In
fact it's a lot of fun to drive. But even with 4 winter tires, the
car is very difficult to drive in more than a couple of inches of
snow.

On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 21:05:04 UTC, "Car Guy" <ac222@hotmail.com>­ wrote:
I am planning on trading in my 2002 Camry in a few years when it gets to > about 200,000 KM or 124,000 miles to get something more smaller, sportier, > and decent in winter. Right now, IS 300 is the only thing I see in the > Canadian market that looks appealing.>
Anyone know of something else that is coming out? >


--

Add comment
Elmo P. Shagnasty 18 April 2005 04:14:40 [ permanent link ]
 In article <R6-dnfevgpYiUv_fRV­n-2g@rogers.com>,
"Car Guy" <ac222@hotmail.com>­ wrote:
I am planning on trading in my 2002 Camry in a few years when it gets to > about 200,000 KM or 124,000 miles to get something more smaller, sportier, > and decent in winter.

Put Nokian tires (I use the all-season WR) on that Camry, and it'll be
MORE than decent in winter.

And it's a lot cheaper than a new car.
Add comment
Guest 18 April 2005 05:48:31 [ permanent link ]
 Sure, drive and price a 2005 V8 Lincoln LS, WBMA. It is already
on the market, you need not wait any longer. They have traction
control and posi-rear. It sells for $20,000 less than a Lexus V8
and after driving a Camry for three years, you will think you
died and went to heaven ;)


mike hunt



Car Guy wrote:>
I am planning on trading in my 2002 Camry in a few years when it gets to> about 200,000 KM or 124,000 miles to get something more smaller, sportier,> and decent in winter. Right now, IS 300 is the only thing I see in the> Canadian market that looks appealing.>
Anyone know of something else that is coming out?
Add comment
Elmo P. Shagnasty 18 April 2005 06:44:24 [ permanent link ]
 In article <426311EF.CCBA6D04@­mailcity.com>, MajorDomo@mailcity.­com
wrote:
Sure, drive and price a 2005 V8 Lincoln LS, WBMA. It is already> on the market, you need not wait any longer. They have traction> control and posi-rear. It sells for $20,000 less than a Lexus V8> and after driving a Camry for three years, you will think you> died and went to heaven ;)

Or better yet, wait two years and THEN drive and price an 05 LS V8.

At that point, it'll sell for $40,000 less than the Lexus V8.
Add comment
Car Guy 18 April 2005 16:49:31 [ permanent link ]
 I currently use Nokian Hakka 1's on my Camry in the Winter and Michelin
Energy MXV4 plus in the summer.

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns­.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-B8FA7C.2­0144017042005@text.u­senetserver.com...> In article <R6-dnfevgpYiUv_fRV­n-2g@rogers.com>,> "Car Guy" <ac222@hotmail.com>­ wrote:>
I am planning on trading in my 2002 Camry in a few years when it gets to>> about 200,000 KM or 124,000 miles to get something more smaller, >> sportier,>> and decent in winter.>
Put Nokian tires (I use the all-season WR) on that Camry, and it'll be> MORE than decent in winter.>
And it's a lot cheaper than a new car.


Add comment
Guest 18 April 2005 23:29:00 [ permanent link ]
 Not so. I owned four Lexus V8's before I bought my 2000 Lincoln
LS in '99, the 05 is my third Lincoln. I paid many thousands
less to buy my next Lincoln than I spent to buy my other Lexus'
over the years. I've saved so much money on the Lincoln's that I
bought three of my four Mustang GT convertibles, over the same
time period, with the money I saved. The Lexus' I've owned were
indeed good cars, but no better than the Lincoln's I've owned


mike hunt



"Elmo P. Shagnasty" wrote:>
In article <426311EF.CCBA6D04@­mailcity.com>, MajorDomo@mailcity.­com> wrote:>
Sure, drive and price a 2005 V8 Lincoln LS, WBMA. It is already> > on the market, you need not wait any longer. They have traction> > control and posi-rear. It sells for $20,000 less than a Lexus V8> > and after driving a Camry for three years, you will think you> > died and went to heaven ;)>
Or better yet, wait two years and THEN drive and price an 05 LS V8.>
At that point, it'll sell for $40,000 less than the Lexus V8.
Add comment
Ray O 19 April 2005 00:24:31 [ permanent link ]
 
<MajorDomo@mailcity­.com> wrote in message
news:42640A7C.E4498­0DC@mailcity.com...>­ Not so. I owned four Lexus V8's before I bought my 2000 Lincoln> LS in '99, the 05 is my third Lincoln. I paid many thousands> less to buy my next Lincoln than I spent to buy my other Lexus'> over the years. I've saved so much money on the Lincoln's that I> bought three of my four Mustang GT convertibles, over the same> time period, with the money I saved. The Lexus' I've owned were> indeed good cars, but no better than the Lincoln's I've owned>
mike hunt>
Mike,

Which Lexus V8 are you comparing with the Lincoln LS? IMO, the LS 400 and
LS 430 does not compete with the Lincoln LS. If you're going to compare a
Lexus with a Lincoln, a more realistic comparison would be the Lexus LS 430
& Town Car; and the Lexus GS 300 & GS 430 with the Lincoln LS although the
Lincolns will still be priced lower than the Lexus.

If your Mustangs were the previous generation, I wasn't so impressed with
their styling but I really like the newest generation Mustang. I hope the
Saleen version I saw at the Chicago Auto show is not typical of Saleen's
work because the body work covering the triangular window behind the
B-pillars looked more Maaco than factory. The factory Mustangs at the auto
show had a good fit and finish and would make an interesting mid-life crisis
car for me since my first car was a 68 Mustang, 302 4 bbl, 3-speed. I
enjoyed that Mustang, even with all the tinkering it took - the trunk floor
rotted where it meets the rear fenders; the seat back broke, necessitating a
milk crate to hold it up; the clutch pedal wouldn't return to the fully
raised position so I put a spring from a gate in to pull the pedal up;
replaced the water pump; exhaust fell off on the way home - one of my
earliest experience with a coat hanger converted to bailing wire; the
mounting rod for both front shocks snapped off, and no tickets!

The first generation Celica was patterned after the Mustang - long hood,
short deck, coupe and fastback body styles, circular gauges in the
instrument panel, double-sided key, triple-lens tail lights, recessed
grille. The "poor man's Mustang" was a hit and the Mustang and Celica are 2
of the few sporty cars still around.

--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply


Add comment
Msb 19 April 2005 02:24:39 [ permanent link ]
 To actually answer the original poster by the time your ready Lexus will
have a new IS350 and if rumours are true it will be available in all wheel
drive.
Go to www.autospies.com to see pic's of the upcoming IS

msb

Car Guy wrote:> I am planning on trading in my 2002 Camry in a few years when it gets> to about 200,000 KM or 124,000 miles to get something more smaller,> sportier, and decent in winter. Right now, IS 300 is the only thing> I see in the Canadian market that looks appealing.>
Anyone know of something else that is coming out?


Add comment
Guest 19 April 2005 03:11:01 [ permanent link ]
 You are free to believe whatever you wish. I owned a '99, '01,
and '03 GT Mustang GT convertibles. A 2000, Lincoln LS that I
gave to one of my sons and as well as
an 01, and 03. I only drive RWD V8 powered vehicles, my
Lincoln's have proven to be just as good as the RWD V8 Lexus' I
was paying 20K to 25K more to drive home from a dealership that
though because I owned a Lexus I would always buy them, at
whatever the price he demanded. I'm '79 and own a 2005 Lincoln
LS Sport that I bought in November and a 2005 Mustang GT
convertible that I picked up on March 15th. Quicker than a cat
on the 4th of July, tight as a drum. $5,000 less than a Solara
convertible with a V6 driving the wrong end of the car. Just
took it for a 2,000 mile trip through the south, so I could run
with the top down. Over 24 MPG running 80 MPH across I40. Gas was
$2.18. There was a time I was the fastest driver on the road,
not today. Plenty of other drivers were running 90 MPH in their
little econobox. I guess the price of gas is still not hurting
too many drivers. ;)


mike hunt




Ray O wrote:>
<MajorDomo@mailcity­.com> wrote in message> news:42640A7C.E4498­0DC@mailcity.com...>­ > Not so. I owned four Lexus V8's before I bought my 2000 Lincoln> > LS in '99, the 05 is my third Lincoln. I paid many thousands> > less to buy my next Lincoln than I spent to buy my other Lexus'> > over the years. I've saved so much money on the Lincoln's that I> > bought three of my four Mustang GT convertibles, over the same> > time period, with the money I saved. The Lexus' I've owned were> > indeed good cars, but no better than the Lincoln's I've owned> >
mike hunt> >
Mike,>
Which Lexus V8 are you comparing with the Lincoln LS? IMO, the LS 400 and> LS 430 does not compete with the Lincoln LS. If you're going to compare a> Lexus with a Lincoln, a more realistic comparison would be the Lexus LS 430> & Town Car; and the Lexus GS 300 & GS 430 with the Lincoln LS although the> Lincolns will still be priced lower than the Lexus.>
If your Mustangs were the previous generation, I wasn't so impressed with> their styling but I really like the newest generation Mustang. I hope the> Saleen version I saw at the Chicago Auto show is not typical of Saleen's> work because the body work covering the triangular window behind the> B-pillars looked more Maaco than factory. The factory Mustangs at the auto> show had a good fit and finish and would make an interesting mid-life crisis> car for me since my first car was a 68 Mustang, 302 4 bbl, 3-speed. I> enjoyed that Mustang, even with all the tinkering it took - the trunk floor> rotted where it meets the rear fenders; the seat back broke, necessitating a> milk crate to hold it up; the clutch pedal wouldn't return to the fully> raised position so I put a spring from a gate in to pull the pedal up;> replaced the water pump; exhaust fell off on the way home - one of my> earliest experience with a coat hanger converted to bailing wire; the> mounting rod for both front shocks snapped off, and no tickets!>
The first generation Celica was patterned after the Mustang - long hood,> short deck, coupe and fastback body styles, circular gauges in the> instrument panel, double-sided key, triple-lens tail lights, recessed> grille. The "poor man's Mustang" was a hit and the Mustang and Celica are 2> of the few sporty cars still around.>
--> Ray O> correct the return address punctuation to reply
Add comment
Dave Stone 19 April 2005 06:52:28 [ permanent link ]
 BenDover@mailcity.co­m wrote in news:42643E85.2B32E­923@mailcity.com:
You are free to believe whatever you wish. I owned a '99, '01,> and '03 GT Mustang GT convertibles. A 2000, Lincoln LS that I> gave to one of my sons and as well as > an 01, and 03. I only drive RWD V8 powered vehicles, my> Lincoln's have proven to be just as good as the RWD V8 Lexus' I> was paying 20K to 25K more to drive home from a dealership that> though because I owned a Lexus I would always buy them, at> whatever the price he demanded. I'm '79 and own a 2005 Lincoln> LS Sport that I bought in November and a 2005 Mustang GT> convertible that I picked up on March 15th. Quicker than a cat> on the 4th of July, tight as a drum. $5,000 less than a Solara> convertible with a V6 driving the wrong end of the car. Just> took it for a 2,000 mile trip through the south, so I could run> with the top down. Over 24 MPG running 80 MPH across I40. Gas was> $2.18. There was a time I was the fastest driver on the road,> not today. Plenty of other drivers were running 90 MPH in their> little econobox. I guess the price of gas is still not hurting> too many drivers. ;)>
mike hunt

You've got to be kidding...I don't even know where to start on this.

Where are you getting an 05 Mustang GT convertible for $5k less than the
Solara? I looked on Toyota's website and the base model started at $26.5k
and the SLE at 29.8. Both came standard w/ the V6. You must be an ex-Ford
employee or have some fat discount you conveniently omitted..
Add comment
Elmo P. Shagnasty 19 April 2005 07:28:47 [ permanent link ]
 In article <42643E85.2B32E923@­mailcity.com>, BenDover@mailcity.c­om
wrote:
Lincoln's have proven to be just as good as the RWD V8 Lexus' I> was paying 20K to 25K more to drive home from a dealership

Like I said, wait two years. You'll get a VERY nice Lincoln LS for WAY
less than new, while the two year old Lexus--still very nice--will still
be considerably closer to retail value.

Buy American cars 2 years used, buy Japanese cars new. That's the only
way to lose the least amount of money.
Add comment
Ray O 19 April 2005 08:09:50 [ permanent link ]
 
<BenDover@mailcity.­com> wrote in message
news:42643E85.2B32E­923@mailcity.com...>­ You are free to believe whatever you wish. I owned a '99, '01,> and '03 GT Mustang GT convertibles. A 2000, Lincoln LS that I> gave to one of my sons and as well as> an 01, and 03. I only drive RWD V8 powered vehicles, my> Lincoln's have proven to be just as good as the RWD V8 Lexus' I> was paying 20K to 25K more to drive home from a dealership that> though because I owned a Lexus I would always buy them, at> whatever the price he demanded. I'm '79 and own a 2005 Lincoln> LS Sport that I bought in November and a 2005 Mustang GT> convertible that I picked up on March 15th. Quicker than a cat> on the 4th of July, tight as a drum. $5,000 less than a Solara> convertible with a V6 driving the wrong end of the car. Just> took it for a 2,000 mile trip through the south, so I could run> with the top down. Over 24 MPG running 80 MPH across I40. Gas was> $2.18. There was a time I was the fastest driver on the road,> not today. Plenty of other drivers were running 90 MPH in their> little econobox. I guess the price of gas is still not hurting> too many drivers. ;)>
mike hunt>
Mike,

If you look at my post below, you'll see that I wasn't disagreeing with you.
I was asking which RWD V8 Lexus you were driving before changing over to the
Lincoln LS. I agree with you that a U.S. domestic brand vehicle will last a
long time with good maintenance although I disagree with you in that they
are as good as a Toyota.

I've called on dealer service departments that sold every brand but
Rolls/Bentley, and Toyota's warranty expense PNVR was a 10th of the Big 3's
and 10 to 20% lower than the other Japanese brands. In my mind, a
manufacturer's warranty expense PNVR is the most accurate indication of
reliability. I've done studies on paint finish and body fit, and in the
vehicles where I measured the even-ness of the gap between hoods and deck
lids and fenders, doors, etc. on new, 3-year old, and 5-year old behicles,
Toyota was the most uniform, and the Germans were next. Of course, not
every notices a 1 mm variance in body panel variance or more orange peel so
they're not very likely to pay a premium for something more than "good
enough." That was a while ago, and I'm sure the Big 3, expecially Ford,
have come a long ways in quality and reliability. I agree with you that
consumers have to decide whether it is worth it to them to pay the premium
for Toyota, Lexus, Honda, etc. over a comparable Big 3 offering. Having
been around cars most of my life, I'm pretty anal so I prefer Toyota/Lexus,
especially since I can get a better deal on them and reduce the premium that
I have to pay than other brands and I'm getting less inclined to mess with
fixing them as I get older.


--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply>
Ray O wrote:>>
<MajorDomo@mailcity­.com> wrote in message>> news:42640A7C.E4498­0DC@mailcity.com...>­> > Not so. I owned four Lexus V8's before I bought my 2000 Lincoln>> > LS in '99, the 05 is my third Lincoln. I paid many thousands>> > less to buy my next Lincoln than I spent to buy my other Lexus'>> > over the years. I've saved so much money on the Lincoln's that I>> > bought three of my four Mustang GT convertibles, over the same>> > time period, with the money I saved. The Lexus' I've owned were>> > indeed good cars, but no better than the Lincoln's I've owned>> >
mike hunt>> >
Mike,>>
Which Lexus V8 are you comparing with the Lincoln LS? IMO, the LS 400 >> and>> LS 430 does not compete with the Lincoln LS. If you're going to >> compare a>> Lexus with a Lincoln, a more realistic comparison would be the Lexus LS >> 430>> & Town Car; and the Lexus GS 300 & GS 430 with the Lincoln LS although >> the>> Lincolns will still be priced lower than the Lexus.>>
If your Mustangs were the previous generation, I wasn't so impressed with>> their styling but I really like the newest generation Mustang. I hope >> the>> Saleen version I saw at the Chicago Auto show is not typical of Saleen's>> work because the body work covering the triangular window behind the>> B-pillars looked more Maaco than factory. The factory Mustangs at the >> auto>> show had a good fit and finish and would make an interesting mid-life >> crisis>> car for me since my first car was a 68 Mustang, 302 4 bbl, 3-speed. I>> enjoyed that Mustang, even with all the tinkering it took - the trunk >> floor>> rotted where it meets the rear fenders; the seat back broke, >> necessitating a>> milk crate to hold it up; the clutch pedal wouldn't return to the fully>> raised position so I put a spring from a gate in to pull the pedal up;>> replaced the water pump; exhaust fell off on the way home - one of my>> earliest experience with a coat hanger converted to bailing wire; the>> mounting rod for both front shocks snapped off, and no tickets!>>
The first generation Celica was patterned after the Mustang - long hood,>> short deck, coupe and fastback body styles, circular gauges in the>> instrument panel, double-sided key, triple-lens tail lights, recessed>> grille. The "poor man's Mustang" was a hit and the Mustang and Celica >> are 2>> of the few sporty cars still around.>>
-->> Ray O>> correct the return address punctuation to reply


Add comment
Viperkiller 19 April 2005 09:23:02 [ permanent link ]
 On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 19:11:01 -0400, BenDover@mailcity.c­om wrote:
You are free to believe whatever you wish. I owned a '99, '01,>and '03 GT Mustang GT convertibles. A 2000, Lincoln LS that I>gave to one of my sons and as well as >an 01, and 03. I only drive RWD V8 powered vehicles, my>Lincoln's have proven to be just as good as the RWD V8 Lexus' I>was paying 20K to 25K more to drive home from a dealership that>though because I owned a Lexus I would always buy them, at>whatever the price he demanded. I'm '79 and own a 2005 Lincoln>LS Sport that I bought in November and a 2005 Mustang GT>convertible that I picked up on March 15th. Quicker than a cat>on the 4th of July, tight as a drum. $5,000 less than a Solara>convertible with a V6 driving the wrong end of the car. Just>took it for a 2,000 mile trip through the south, so I could run>with the top down. Over 24 MPG running 80 MPH across I40. Gas was>$2.18. There was a time I was the fastest driver on the road,>not today. Plenty of other drivers were running 90 MPH in their>little econobox. I guess the price of gas is still not hurting>too many drivers. ;)>
mike hunt>
Ray O wrote:>>
<MajorDomo@mailcity­.com> wrote in message>> news:42640A7C.E4498­0DC@mailcity.com...>­> > Not so. I owned four Lexus V8's before I bought my 2000 Lincoln>> > LS in '99, the 05 is my third Lincoln. I paid many thousands>> > less to buy my next Lincoln than I spent to buy my other Lexus'>> > over the years. I've saved so much money on the Lincoln's that I>> > bought three of my four Mustang GT convertibles, over the same>> > time period, with the money I saved. The Lexus' I've owned were>> > indeed good cars, but no better than the Lincoln's I've owned>> >
mike hunt>> >

I seriously doubt that you have owned a Lexus for any period of time.
It is my belief that you made it all up so you can speak badly of it.
If you seriously think that a Lincoln is just as good as a Lexus,
you're missing something very big. Stick to your Ford products and
stay of this newsgroup with all your made up stories.
Add comment
Viperkiller 19 April 2005 09:25:22 [ permanent link ]
 On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 21:48:31 -0400, MajorDomo@mailcity.­com wrote:
Sure, drive and price a 2005 V8 Lincoln LS, WBMA. It is already>on the market, you need not wait any longer. They have traction>control and posi-rear. It sells for $20,000 less than a Lexus V8>and after driving a Camry for three years, you will think you>died and went to heaven ;)>
mike hunt>
I'll believe that I died alright...but not in heaven.
Add comment
Viperkiller 19 April 2005 09:31:08 [ permanent link ]
 On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 19:11:01 -0400, BenDover@mailcity.c­om wrote:
You are free to believe whatever you wish. I owned a '99, '01,>and '03 GT Mustang GT convertibles. A 2000, Lincoln LS that I>gave to one of my sons and as well as >an 01, and 03. I only drive RWD V8 powered vehicles, my>Lincoln's have proven to be just as good as the RWD V8 Lexus' I>was paying 20K to 25K more to drive home from a dealership that>though because I owned a Lexus I would always buy them, at>whatever the price he demanded. I'm '79 and own a 2005 Lincoln>LS Sport that I bought in November and a 2005 Mustang GT>convertible that I picked up on March 15th. Quicker than a cat>on the 4th of July, tight as a drum. $5,000 less than a Solara>convertible with a V6 driving the wrong end of the car. Just>took it for a 2,000 mile trip through the south, so I could run>with the top down. Over 24 MPG running 80 MPH across I40. Gas was>$2.18. There was a time I was the fastest driver on the road,>not today. Plenty of other drivers were running 90 MPH in their>little econobox. I guess the price of gas is still not hurting>too many drivers. ;)>
mike hunt>
I have a GS430. I'll take any of your Mustang GT's with automatics
anyday. I've been them before. They have bigger engines than my car
and have lighter weights. Even the coupes lose to my car. Why do
they lose? They're piles of garbage, that's why. What other excuse
do they have for losing to a perfectly stock 4-door luxury car?

You wish you get 24mpg with your car. I actually average 24.5mpg with
mine on trips. I don't know what medication you've been taking but
please ensure that you have legal medicinal reasons for them.
Add comment
Guest 19 April 2005 19:48:42 [ permanent link ]
 I suggest you go to your local Toyota dealer and find out what it
actually will cost you to drive home a Solara. The Toyota dealer
wanted over $36,000 for me to drive home a fully loaded Solaria
V6 convertible. I drove home the fully loaded 05 Mustang GT V8
convertible for $31,350


mike hunt



Dave Stone wrote:>
BenDover@mailcity.c­om wrote in news:42643E85.2B32E­923@mailcity.com:>
You are free to believe whatever you wish. I owned a '99, '01,> > and '03 GT Mustang GT convertibles. A 2000, Lincoln LS that I> > gave to one of my sons and as well as> > an 01, and 03. I only drive RWD V8 powered vehicles, my> > Lincoln's have proven to be just as good as the RWD V8 Lexus' I> > was paying 20K to 25K more to drive home from a dealership that> > though because I owned a Lexus I would always buy them, at> > whatever the price he demanded. I'm '79 and own a 2005 Lincoln> > LS Sport that I bought in November and a 2005 Mustang GT> > convertible that I picked up on March 15th. Quicker than a cat> > on the 4th of July, tight as a drum. $5,000 less than a Solara> > convertible with a V6 driving the wrong end of the car. Just> > took it for a 2,000 mile trip through the south, so I could run> > with the top down. Over 24 MPG running 80 MPH across I40. Gas was> > $2.18. There was a time I was the fastest driver on the road,> > not today. Plenty of other drivers were running 90 MPH in their> > little econobox. I guess the price of gas is still not hurting> > too many drivers. ;)> >
mike hunt>
You've got to be kidding...I don't even know where to start on this.>
Where are you getting an 05 Mustang GT convertible for $5k less than the> Solara? I looked on Toyota's website and the base model started at $26.5k> and the SLE at 29.8. Both came standard w/ the V6. You must be an ex-Ford> employee or have some fat discount you conveniently omitted..
Add comment
BushkaBob 19 April 2005 19:52:08 [ permanent link ]
 I understand the all-new '07 Camry will be out in early '06. The
all-new Toyota Avalon is out now, and with VSC should be excellent in
snow. Bob

Add comment
Guest 19 April 2005 19:56:29 [ permanent link ]
 I don't buy used cars. If one followers your logic it would be
better to wait FOUR years and save even more.
In fact it would behoove one to wait even longer and get ones
vehicle free.


mike hunt



"Elmo P. Shagnasty" wrote:>
In article <42643E85.2B32E923@­mailcity.com>, BenDover@mailcity.c­om> wrote:>
Lincoln's have proven to be just as good as the RWD V8 Lexus' I> > was paying 20K to 25K more to drive home from a dealership>
Like I said, wait two years. You'll get a VERY nice Lincoln LS for WAY> less than new, while the two year old Lexus--still very nice--will still> be considerably closer to retail value.>
Buy American cars 2 years used, buy Japanese cars new. That's the only> way to lose the least amount of money.
Add comment
Guest 19 April 2005 20:13:19 [ permanent link ]
 In our fleet service business we service the vehicles of
corporation, and government fleets. Since the federal deprecation
laws require five years to depreciate the cost of vehicles, most
corporation keep their vehicles for five years or 300K WOF. The
corporate fleets look at the total cost of acquiring, insuring,
maintaining, repairing, and replacing the vehicles they use as
tools in their business. Over the years Ford Motor company
vehicles have proven to be those that best meet that criteria.
That is why Ford controls around 80% of all fleet sales. Because
of that realization I personally began to look at the cost of
acquiring, maintain and replacing my vehicles every two years. I
come to the same conclusion in 1999 when the Lexus dealer what me
to pay him $57,000 for a 1999 Lexus when I could buy the then new
2000 Lincoln LS for $37,000.
I have owned both brands, apparently you have not. It's your
money however spend it where you wish, WBMA

mike hunt



Ray O wrote:>
<BenDover@mailcity.­com> wrote in message> news:42643E85.2B32E­923@mailcity.com...>­ > You are free to believe whatever you wish. I owned a '99, '01,> > and '03 GT Mustang GT convertibles. A 2000, Lincoln LS that I> > gave to one of my sons and as well as> > an 01, and 03. I only drive RWD V8 powered vehicles, my> > Lincoln's have proven to be just as good as the RWD V8 Lexus' I> > was paying 20K to 25K more to drive home from a dealership that> > though because I owned a Lexus I would always buy them, at> > whatever the price he demanded. I'm '79 and own a 2005 Lincoln> > LS Sport that I bought in November and a 2005 Mustang GT> > convertible that I picked up on March 15th. Quicker than a cat> > on the 4th of July, tight as a drum. $5,000 less than a Solara> > convertible with a V6 driving the wrong end of the car. Just> > took it for a 2,000 mile trip through the south, so I could run> > with the top down. Over 24 MPG running 80 MPH across I40. Gas was> > $2.18. There was a time I was the fastest driver on the road,> > not today. Plenty of other drivers were running 90 MPH in their> > little econobox. I guess the price of gas is still not hurting> > too many drivers. ;)> >
mike hunt> >
Mike,>
If you look at my post below, you'll see that I wasn't disagreeing with you.> I was asking which RWD V8 Lexus you were driving before changing over to the> Lincoln LS. I agree with you that a U.S. domestic brand vehicle will last a> long time with good maintenance although I disagree with you in that they> are as good as a Toyota.>
I've called on dealer service departments that sold every brand but> Rolls/Bentley, and Toyota's warranty expense PNVR was a 10th of the Big 3's> and 10 to 20% lower than the other Japanese brands. In my mind, a> manufacturer's warranty expense PNVR is the most accurate indication of> reliability. I've done studies on paint finish and body fit, and in the> vehicles where I measured the even-ness of the gap between hoods and deck> lids and fenders, doors, etc. on new, 3-year old, and 5-year old behicles,> Toyota was the most uniform, and the Germans were next. Of course, not> every notices a 1 mm variance in body panel variance or more orange peel so> they're not very likely to pay a premium for something more than "good> enough." That was a while ago, and I'm sure the Big 3, expecially Ford,> have come a long ways in quality and reliability. I agree with you that> consumers have to decide whether it is worth it to them to pay the premium> for Toyota, Lexus, Honda, etc. over a comparable Big 3 offering. Having> been around cars most of my life, I'm pretty anal so I prefer Toyota/Lexus,> especially since I can get a better deal on them and reduce the premium that> I have to pay than other brands and I'm getting less inclined to mess with> fixing them as I get older.>
--> Ray O> correct the return address punctuation to reply> >
Ray O wrote:> >>
<MajorDomo@mailcity­.com> wrote in message> >> news:42640A7C.E4498­0DC@mailcity.com...>­ >> > Not so. I owned four Lexus V8's before I bought my 2000 Lincoln> >> > LS in '99, the 05 is my third Lincoln. I paid many thousands> >> > less to buy my next Lincoln than I spent to buy my other Lexus'> >> > over the years. I've saved so much money on the Lincoln's that I> >> > bought three of my four Mustang GT convertibles, over the same> >> > time period, with the money I saved. The Lexus' I've owned were> >> > indeed good cars, but no better than the Lincoln's I've owned> >> >
mike hunt> >> >
Mike,> >>
Which Lexus V8 are you comparing with the Lincoln LS? IMO, the LS 400> >> and> >> LS 430 does not compete with the Lincoln LS. If you're going to> >> compare a> >> Lexus with a Lincoln, a more realistic comparison would be the Lexus LS> >> 430> >> & Town Car; and the Lexus GS 300 & GS 430 with the Lincoln LS although> >> the> >> Lincolns will still be priced lower than the Lexus.> >>
If your Mustangs were the previous generation, I wasn't so impressed with> >> their styling but I really like the newest generation Mustang. I hope> >> the> >> Saleen version I saw at the Chicago Auto show is not typical of Saleen's> >> work because the body work covering the triangular window behind the> >> B-pillars looked more Maaco than factory. The factory Mustangs at the> >> auto> >> show had a good fit and finish and would make an interesting mid-life> >> crisis> >> car for me since my first car was a 68 Mustang, 302 4 bbl, 3-speed. I> >> enjoyed that Mustang, even with all the tinkering it took - the trunk> >> floor> >> rotted where it meets the rear fenders; the seat back broke,> >> necessitating a> >> milk crate to hold it up; the clutch pedal wouldn't return to the fully> >> raised position so I put a spring from a gate in to pull the pedal up;> >> replaced the water pump; exhaust fell off on the way home - one of my> >> earliest experience with a coat hanger converted to bailing wire; the> >> mounting rod for both front shocks snapped off, and no tickets!> >>
The first generation Celica was patterned after the Mustang - long hood,> >> short deck, coupe and fastback body styles, circular gauges in the> >> instrument panel, double-sided key, triple-lens tail lights, recessed> >> grille. The "poor man's Mustang" was a hit and the Mustang and Celica> >> are 2> >> of the few sporty cars still around.> >>
--> >> Ray O> >> correct the return address punctuation to reply
Add comment
Elmo P. Shagnasty 19 April 2005 21:10:30 [ permanent link ]
 In article <42652A2D.F5341ADA@­mailcity.com>, BenDover@mailcity.c­om
wrote:
I don't buy used cars. If one followers your logic it would be> better to wait FOUR years and save even more.

Nope. You'd get a diminishing return on the depreciation.

American cars take a HUGE hit at 2 years. After that, they don't
depreciate at nearly the rate.

A 2 year old decently maintained American car that someone else is tired
of is a gold mine.
Add comment


Dave Stone 19 April 2005 22:36:09 [ permanent link ]
 BenDover@mailcity.co­m wrote in news:4265285A.5617C­40E@mailcity.com:
I suggest you go to your local Toyota dealer and find out what it> actually will cost you to drive home a Solara. The Toyota dealer> wanted over $36,000 for me to drive home a fully loaded Solaria> V6 convertible. I drove home the fully loaded 05 Mustang GT V8> convertible for $31,350>
mike hunt

I suggest you stop lying...

http://cgi.ebay.com­/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI­SAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd­=1&item=
4543322153&category­=84166
Add comment
Gord Beaman 19 April 2005 22:45:39 [ permanent link ]
 BenDover@mailcity.co­m wrote:
I don't buy used cars. If one followers your logic it would be>better to wait FOUR years and save even more.>In fact it would behoove one to wait even longer and get ones>vehicle free.>

It's sorta like buying computers...if you see one you like and
say "I'll wait six months and get it much cheaper", but by then
something else will be out that's even nicer, ete etc. :)­

The only way to do it is lash out and buy, then STOP LOOKING!...

--

--Gord
(use gordon in email)

"Without detonation, your car won't
move. That's what makes engines go".

"In my car, the high octane fuel detonates
better than the lower octane grades.
Fortunately for me, it doesn't PREVENT DETONATION".

-Burnore.
Yes, Detonation is a normal condition and >it occurs every time you have ignition, >you really need to get over that!

-Josh
Add comment


Ray O 20 April 2005 01:13:23 [ permanent link ]
 Top Posting because Mike apparently doesn't scroll down to read before
responding...

Mike,

You should read what others posted before responding.

I asked you in 2 different posts which Lexus model you were considering when
you got the Lincoln LS and your response has been the same both times, which
is why you think the Lincoln LS or Ford is a better buy than a Lexus or
Toyota and ignoring my question.

I happen to agree with you to a certain extent if someone is looking to
purchase a car purely on the basis of lowest cash outlay over the life of
the car, a Ford make sense, as it does to fleet buyers.

On the other hand, when you take intangibles into account, then other brands
like Toyota and Lexus make sense.

I know you consider intangibles in some of your decisions, otherwise, you
would not have enjoyed the TR or Ford GT rides - 2 cars that do not make
economic sense for daily transportation, and instead of staying married and
paying to keep your wife happy and comfortable, it would be cheaper to hire
someone to accompany you to dinner or do whatever.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply

<BenDover@mailcity.­com> wrote in message
news:42652E1F.C178F­6E7@mailcity.com...>­ In our fleet service business we service the vehicles of> corporation, and government fleets. Since the federal deprecation> laws require five years to depreciate the cost of vehicles, most> corporation keep their vehicles for five years or 300K WOF. The> corporate fleets look at the total cost of acquiring, insuring,> maintaining, repairing, and replacing the vehicles they use as> tools in their business. Over the years Ford Motor company> vehicles have proven to be those that best meet that criteria.> That is why Ford controls around 80% of all fleet sales. Because> of that realization I personally began to look at the cost of> acquiring, maintain and replacing my vehicles every two years. I> come to the same conclusion in 1999 when the Lexus dealer what me> to pay him $57,000 for a 1999 Lexus when I could buy the then new> 2000 Lincoln LS for $37,000.> I have owned both brands, apparently you have not. It's your> money however spend it where you wish, WBMA>
mike hunt>
<snip>


Add comment
Guest 20 April 2005 02:20:34 [ permanent link ]
 That may be your opinion but if you actually LOOK at the
depreciation of American cars, as a percentage of the
real purchase price, you are mistaken. NADA list a two year old
V6 Camry as worth $4,000 more retail than a two year old V6
Taurus, but the Camry cost at least $5,000 more to dive home two
year ago. A loss of $1,000 if you chose the Camry. When one
compares domestic cars that actually sold at near the price of a
new V6 Camry two years ago, like the larger V8 Crown Vic, it is
worth MORE than the Camry. ;)



mike hunt



"Elmo P. Shagnasty" wrote:>
In article <42652A2D.F5341ADA@­mailcity.com>, BenDover@mailcity.c­om> wrote:>
I don't buy used cars. If one followers your logic it would be> > better to wait FOUR years and save even more.>
Nope. You'd get a diminishing return on the depreciation.>
American cars take a HUGE hit at 2 years. After that, they don't> depreciate at nearly the rate.>
A 2 year old decently maintained American car that someone else is tired> of is a gold mine.
Add comment


Guest 20 April 2005 03:07:45 [ permanent link ]
 I guess I assumed too much. For a Lexus guy I figured
you would KNOW which Lexus' were RWD V8s and which one sold for
55K in 1999. ;)


mike hunt



Ray O wrote:>
Top Posting because Mike apparently doesn't scroll down to read before> responding...>
Mike,>
You should read what others posted before responding.>
I asked you in 2 different posts which Lexus model you were considering when> you got the Lincoln LS
Add comment
Viperkiller 20 April 2005 05:32:55 [ permanent link ]
 On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 19:07:45 -0400, MelvinGibson@mailci­ty.com wrote:
I guess I assumed too much. For a Lexus guy I figured >you would KNOW which Lexus' were RWD V8s and which one sold for>55K in 1999. ;)>
mike hunt>
The Lincoln LS is a piece of garbage compared to the Lexus that you're
referring to. The Lincoln LS is nothing more than a dressed up Ford
Contour that sold for $15K. As a Lincoln, it's okay to be sold for
$40k? Talk about being overpriced.
Add comment
Philip 20 April 2005 05:51:46 [ permanent link ]
 Viperkiller wrote:> On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 19:07:45 -0400, MelvinGibson@mailci­ty.com wrote:>
I guess I assumed too much. For a Lexus guy I figured>> you would KNOW which Lexus' were RWD V8s and which one sold for>> 55K in 1999. ;)>>
mike hunt>>
The Lincoln LS is a piece of garbage compared to the Lexus that you're> referring to. The Lincoln LS is nothing more than a dressed up Ford> Contour that sold for $15K. As a Lincoln, it's okay to be sold for> $40k? Talk about being overpriced.

Lincoln LS: REAR wheel drive
Ford Contour: FRONT wheel drive.

Two entirely different cars.
--

- Philip



Add comment
Ray O 20 April 2005 19:57:42 [ permanent link ]
 
<MelvinGibson@mailc­ity.com> wrote in message
news:42658F41.4C8D9­B9A@mailcity.com...>­I guess I assumed too much. For a Lexus guy I figured> you would KNOW which Lexus' were RWD V8s and which one sold for> 55K in 1999. ;)>
mike hunt>

I'm not a Lexus guy. I'm guessing that in 1999, RWD V8's in that price
range were a loaded GS 400 and moderately equipped LS 400, more likely the
LS 400. To me, the LS 400 competes more with a Town Car with an emphasis on
comfort and the GS 400 competes more with the Lincoln LS with an emphasis on
sportiness.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply


Add comment
Viperkiller 21 April 2005 08:01:51 [ permanent link ]
 On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 01:51:46 GMT, "Philip"
<1chip-state1@earth­link.n0t> wrote:
Viperkiller wrote:>> On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 19:07:45 -0400, MelvinGibson@mailci­ty.com wrote:>>
I guess I assumed too much. For a Lexus guy I figured>>> you would KNOW which Lexus' were RWD V8s and which one sold for>>> 55K in 1999. ;)>>>
mike hunt>>>
The Lincoln LS is a piece of garbage compared to the Lexus that you're>> referring to. The Lincoln LS is nothing more than a dressed up Ford>> Contour that sold for $15K. As a Lincoln, it's okay to be sold for>> $40k? Talk about being overpriced.>
Lincoln LS: REAR wheel drive>Ford Contour: FRONT wheel drive.>
Two entirely different cars.

You are right that the Lincoln is a RWD while the Contour is a FWD.
This much is true: the Lincoln LS and the Jaguar X-Type are based
from from Mondeo platform. As you may have been already aware, the
Mondeo was imported here in the US as the Contour and Mystique.
Here's a couple of references:

http://cars.kelkoo.­co.uk/b/a/crm_Jaguar­/X-TYPE/1/100354123.­html
http://www.honestjo­hn.co.uk/road_tests/­?id=16

Add comment
Guest 21 April 2005 23:36:05 [ permanent link ]
 You are wrong the Lincoln LS is not based on a Mondeo platform.
The Type is based on the second generation Mondeo platform but
not the Lincoln LS. The 'S,' T-Bird, and the Lincoln LS are
based on the same chassis and the 2005 Mustang is derived from
that same chassis.


mike hunt


Viperkiller wrote:>
wo entirely different cars.>
You are right that the Lincoln is a RWD while the Contour is a FWD.> This much is true: the Lincoln LS and the Jaguar X-Type are based> from from Mondeo platform. As you may have been already aware, the> Mondeo was imported here in the US as the Contour and Mystique.> Here's a couple of references:>
http://cars.kelkoo.­co.uk/b/a/crm_Jaguar­/X-TYPE/1/100354123.­html> http://www.honestjo­hn.co.uk/road_tests/­?id=16
Add comment
Ggal 22 April 2005 06:54:35 [ permanent link ]
 FYI, the new Camry is coming out next year... along with the new IS.
They are both much bolder and sportier than they are now.

Add comment
Dan J.S. 23 April 2005 06:11:10 [ permanent link ]
 MajorDomo@mailcity.c­om wrote:> Sure, drive and price a 2005 V8 Lincoln LS, WBMA. It is already> on the market, you need not wait any longer. They have traction> control and posi-rear. It sells for $20,000 less than a Lexus V8> and after driving a Camry for three years, you will think you> died and went to heaven ;)>
mike hunt>

Ford just lost $1.2 billion dollars (quarter announced this week). Toyota is
in the black, with huge profits. I would rather be with a company that does
not cut corners to make a comeback. Ford is on too shaky grounds to buy the
brand name. Now it will be worse than ever. They will be forced to cut every
corner they have not. Part manufacturers are already taking a huge hit and
cant cut more. Mike, I would love to support Ford, but in reality they were
screwing all of us 30 years ago when they made utter crap. Now they deserve
what they get.



Add comment
Joseph Oberlander 23 April 2005 22:08:24 [ permanent link ]
 

Dan J.S. wrote:
MajorDomo@mailcity.­com wrote:>
Sure, drive and price a 2005 V8 Lincoln LS, WBMA. It is already>>on the market, you need not wait any longer. They have traction>>control and posi-rear. It sells for $20,000 less than a Lexus V8>>and after driving a Camry for three years, you will think you>>died and went to heaven ;)>>
mike hunt>>
Ford just lost $1.2 billion dollars (quarter announced this week). Toyota is > in the black, with huge profits. I would rather be with a company that does > not cut corners to make a comeback. Ford is on too shaky grounds to buy the > brand name. Now it will be worse than ever. They will be forced to cut every > corner they have not.

It's not this. It's their Wal-Mart type tactics with 5% mandatory
price reductions per year. Their suppliers eventually did what
any company that's being ruthlessly squeezed does to stay alive -
they lowered Q.C. and outsourced as much as they could.

See, in retail, it works - you sell a product and that's it - as
the retailer, your hands are washed. Problems are dealt with
through the maker. But as an automobile maker, you can't
make disposeable retail mentality cars. You sell and make the
same product, so it comes back to bite you as quality slips. It
was a fatal mistake that the directors of Ford took in their
greed and arrogance. Never satisfied with a good bottom-line,
they wanted more and more profits.

The more they cut, the worse it will get. Then they implode.
IMO, they have already crossed the point of no return. GM,
though, is probably salvageable. Their problems are purely due
to bloat and inefficiency, much like how Chrysler's were in the
past. Ford, though, is beyond fixing.

Add comment
Guest 23 April 2005 23:57:49 [ permanent link ]
 Actually Ford had a profit, not a loss. GM was the US
manufacture with the loss. Toyota earns high profits in the US
because they build more of their vehicles in low wage countries,
use primarily lower cost foreign parts in the few cars and trucks
they do assemble in the US, pay lower wages and offer fewer
benefits to their workers in the US and charge 20% to 30% more
for their products in the US than does Ford for similarly sized
and equipped vehicle because some people think they are "better"
than their ten year old car. In addition Toyota does not pay a
penny in US corporate income tax and Ford pay millions in US
corporate income tax. Personally I have never owed a bad Ford of
Toyota product.


mike hunt



"Dan J.S." wrote:>
MajorDomo@mailcity.­com wrote:> > Sure, drive and price a 2005 V8 Lincoln LS, WBMA. It is already> > on the market, you need not wait any longer. They have traction> > control and posi-rear. It sells for $20,000 less than a Lexus V8> > and after driving a Camry for three years, you will think you> > died and went to heaven ;)> >
mike hunt> >
Ford just lost $1.2 billion dollars (quarter announced this week). Toyota is> in the black, with huge profits. I would rather be with a company that does> not cut corners to make a comeback. Ford is on too shaky grounds to buy the> brand name. Now it will be worse than ever. They will be forced to cut every> corner they have not. Part manufacturers are already taking a huge hit and> cant cut more. Mike, I would love to support Ford, but in reality they were> screwing all of us 30 years ago when they made utter crap. Now they deserve> what they get.
Add comment
Robert 24 April 2005 21:54:46 [ permanent link ]
 

Toyota does not pay a>penny in US corporate income tax and Ford pay millions in US>corporate income tax. >
mike hunt

I don't know where you get this statistic. I know the Canadian/Ontario
government has given hundreds of millions to both Ford and GM this
year to keep those plants going rather than to see them close down.
It's called corporate welfare or if you or I were doing it, blackmail.
You're right about the big 3's paying more to employees but this has
to do with having to honor their pension and health care contracts,
unless of course Ford and GM could declare bankruptcy and wipe out
all their financial obligations - and I think that's exactly where
they want to go. There was once a cloud of shame in bankruptcy but
shame and pride appears to get short shrift with the latest converts
from the halls of Harvard and Yale. If the airlines can get away with
it why can't they?

Robert

Add comment
Guest 25 April 2005 01:37:34 [ permanent link ]
 From the IRS but I THINK it has nothing to do with
Canada ;)


mike hunt



Robert wrote:>
Actually Ford had a profit, not a loss. GM was the US
manufacture with the loss. Toyota earns high profits in the US
because they build more of their vehicles in low wage countries,
use primarily lower cost foreign parts in the few cars and trucks
they do assemble in the US, pay lower wages and offer fewer
benefits to their workers in the US and charge 20% to 30% more
for their products in the US than does Ford for similarly sized
and equipped vehicle because some people think they are "better"
than their ten year old car. In addition Toyota does not pay a
penny in US corporate income tax and Ford pay millions in US
corporate income tax. Personally I have never owed a bad Ford of
Toyota product.

Toyota does not pay a> >penny in US corporate income tax and Ford pay millions in US> >corporate income tax.> >
mike hunt>
I don't know where you get this statistic. I know the Canadian/Ontario> government has given hundreds of millions to both Ford and GM this> year to keep those plants going rather than to see them close down.> It's called corporate welfare or if you or I were doing it, blackmail.> You're right about the big 3's paying more to employees but this has> to do with having to honor their pension and health care contracts,> unless of course Ford and GM could declare bankruptcy and wipe out> all their financial obligations - and I think that's exactly where> they want to go. There was once a cloud of shame in bankruptcy but> shame and pride appears to get short shrift with the latest converts> from the halls of Harvard and Yale. If the airlines can get away with> it why can't they?>
Robert>
Add comment
D.D. Palmer 25 April 2005 17:41:01 [ permanent link ]
 Yeah but my Nokians only lasted 2 seasons (14000 miles, total) on my Lexus
LS430.

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns­.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-B8FA7C.2­0144017042005@text.u­senetserver.com...> In article <R6-dnfevgpYiUv_fRV­n-2g@rogers.com>,> "Car Guy" <ac222@hotmail.com>­ wrote:>
I am planning on trading in my 2002 Camry in a few years when it gets to>> about 200,000 KM or 124,000 miles to get something more smaller, >> sportier,>> and decent in winter.>
Put Nokian tires (I use the all-season WR) on that Camry, and it'll be> MORE than decent in winter.>
And it's a lot cheaper than a new car.


Add comment
Elmo P. Shagnasty 26 April 2005 00:51:44 [ permanent link ]
 In article <iLSdnQrAcp3xbvHfRV­n-1g@comcast.com>,
"D.D. Palmer" <ddpalmer@hotmail.c­om> wrote:
Yeah but my Nokians only lasted 2 seasons (14000 miles, total) on my Lexus > LS430.

Which Nokians did you use?

I'm on the all-season WR. Different beast entirely than the dedicated
snow/winter tires.
Add comment
D.D. Palmer 26 April 2005 01:56:22 [ permanent link ]
 I HAD the WR. Like I said, they did not last. I will grant it that I am in
Pittsburgh and there are lots of hills. Even the best Michelin tires don't
last half as long here as in the flatlands. Neverthless, the Nokians, at
about $700 installed for 4 tires, was a very expensive solution to the snow
problem. Next season I'll try Michelin Arctic Alpines I believe. And I might
only put them on the rear, in spite of what "auto enthusiasts" say.
"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns­.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-DBE693.1­6514425042005@text.u­senetserver.com...> In article <iLSdnQrAcp3xbvHfRV­n-1g@comcast.com>,> "D.D. Palmer" <ddpalmer@hotmail.c­om> wrote:>
Yeah but my Nokians only lasted 2 seasons (14000 miles, total) on my >> Lexus>> LS430.>
Which Nokians did you use?>
I'm on the all-season WR. Different beast entirely than the dedicated> snow/winter tires.


Add comment
D.D. Palmer 26 April 2005 02:14:00 [ permanent link ]
 A $57000 Lexus LS430 is not a comparable car to a Lincoln LS...the Lexus ES
is more comparable.

<BenDover@mailcity.­com> wrote in message
news:42652E1F.C178F­6E7@mailcity.com...>­ In our fleet service business we service the vehicles of> corporation, and government fleets. Since the federal deprecation> laws require five years to depreciate the cost of vehicles, most> corporation keep their vehicles for five years or 300K WOF. The> corporate fleets look at the total cost of acquiring, insuring,> maintaining, repairing, and replacing the vehicles they use as> tools in their business. Over the years Ford Motor company> vehicles have proven to be those that best meet that criteria.> That is why Ford controls around 80% of all fleet sales. Because> of that realization I personally began to look at the cost of> acquiring, maintain and replacing my vehicles every two years. I> come to the same conclusion in 1999 when the Lexus dealer what me> to pay him $57,000 for a 1999 Lexus when I could buy the then new> 2000 Lincoln LS for $37,000.> I have owned both brands, apparently you have not. It's your> money however spend it where you wish, WBMA>
mike hunt>
Ray O wrote:>>
<BenDover@mailcity.­com> wrote in message>> news:42643E85.2B32E­923@mailcity.com...>­> > You are free to believe whatever you wish. I owned a '99, '01,>> > and '03 GT Mustang GT convertibles. A 2000, Lincoln LS that I>> > gave to one of my sons and as well as>> > an 01, and 03. I only drive RWD V8 powered vehicles, my>> > Lincoln's have proven to be just as good as the RWD V8 Lexus' I>> > was paying 20K to 25K more to drive home from a dealership that>> > though because I owned a Lexus I would always buy them, at>> > whatever the price he demanded. I'm '79 and own a 2005 Lincoln>> > LS Sport that I bought in November and a 2005 Mustang GT>> > convertible that I picked up on March 15th. Quicker than a cat>> > on the 4th of July, tight as a drum. $5,000 less than a Solara>> > convertible with a V6 driving the wrong end of the car. Just>> > took it for a 2,000 mile trip through the south, so I could run>> > with the top down. Over 24 MPG running 80 MPH across I40. Gas was>> > $2.18. There was a time I was the fastest driver on the road,>> > not today. Plenty of other drivers were running 90 MPH in their>> > little econobox. I guess the price of gas is still not hurting>> > too many drivers. ;)>> >
mike hunt>> >
Mike,>>
If you look at my post below, you'll see that I wasn't disagreeing with >> you.>> I was asking which RWD V8 Lexus you were driving before changing over to >> the>> Lincoln LS. I agree with you that a U.S. domestic brand vehicle will >> last a>> long time with good maintenance although I disagree with you in that they>> are as good as a Toyota.>>
I've called on dealer service departments that sold every brand but>> Rolls/Bentley, and Toyota's warranty expense PNVR was a 10th of the Big >> 3's>> and 10 to 20% lower than the other Japanese brands. In my mind, a>> manufacturer's warranty expense PNVR is the most accurate indication of>> reliability. I've done studies on paint finish and body fit, and in the>> vehicles where I measured the even-ness of the gap between hoods and deck>> lids and fenders, doors, etc. on new, 3-year old, and 5-year old >> behicles,>> Toyota was the most uniform, and the Germans were next. Of course, not>> every notices a 1 mm variance in body panel variance or more orange peel >> so>> they're not very likely to pay a premium for something more than "good>> enough." That was a while ago, and I'm sure the Big 3, expecially Ford,>> have come a long ways in quality and reliability. I agree with you that>> consumers have to decide whether it is worth it to them to pay the >> premium>> for Toyota, Lexus, Honda, etc. over a comparable Big 3 offering. Having>> been around cars most of my life, I'm pretty anal so I prefer >> Toyota/Lexus,>> especially since I can get a better deal on them and reduce the premium >> that>> I have to pay than other brands and I'm getting less inclined to mess >> with>> fixing them as I get older.>>
-->> Ray O>> correct the return address punctuation to reply>> >
Ray O wrote:>> >>
<MajorDomo@mailcity­.com> wrote in message>> >> news:42640A7C.E4498­0DC@mailcity.com...>­> >> > Not so. I owned four Lexus V8's before I bought my 2000 Lincoln>> >> > LS in '99, the 05 is my third Lincoln. I paid many thousands>> >> > less to buy my next Lincoln than I spent to buy my other Lexus'>> >> > over the years. I've saved so much money on the Lincoln's that I>> >> > bought three of my four Mustang GT convertibles, over the same>> >> > time period, with the money I saved. The Lexus' I've owned were>> >> > indeed good cars, but no better than the Lincoln's I've owned>> >> >
mike hunt>> >> >
Mike,>> >>
Which Lexus V8 are you comparing with the Lincoln LS? IMO, the LS 400>> >> and>> >> LS 430 does not compete with the Lincoln LS. If you're going to>> >> compare a>> >> Lexus with a Lincoln, a more realistic comparison would be the Lexus >> >> LS>> >> 430>> >> & Town Car; and the Lexus GS 300 & GS 430 with the Lincoln LS although>> >> the>> >> Lincolns will still be priced lower than the Lexus.>> >>
If your Mustangs were the previous generation, I wasn't so impressed >> >> with>> >> their styling but I really like the newest generation Mustang. I hope>> >> the>> >> Saleen version I saw at the Chicago Auto show is not typical of >> >> Saleen's>> >> work because the body work covering the triangular window behind the>> >> B-pillars looked more Maaco than factory. The factory Mustangs at the>> >> auto>> >> show had a good fit and finish and would make an interesting mid-life>> >> crisis>> >> car for me since my first car was a 68 Mustang, 302 4 bbl, 3-speed. I>> >> enjoyed that Mustang, even with all the tinkering it took - the trunk>> >> floor>> >> rotted where it meets the rear fenders; the seat back broke,>> >> necessitating a>> >> milk crate to hold it up; the clutch pedal wouldn't return to the >> >> fully>> >> raised position so I put a spring from a gate in to pull the pedal up;>> >> replaced the water pump; exhaust fell off on the way home - one of my>> >> earliest experience with a coat hanger converted to bailing wire; the>> >> mounting rod for both front shocks snapped off, and no tickets!>> >>
The first generation Celica was patterned after the Mustang - long >> >> hood,>> >> short deck, coupe and fastback body styles, circular gauges in the>> >> instrument panel, double-sided key, triple-lens tail lights, recessed>> >> grille. The "poor man's Mustang" was a hit and the Mustang and Celica>> >> are 2>> >> of the few sporty cars still around.>> >>
-->> >> Ray O>> >> correct the return address punctuation to reply


Add comment
Guest 26 April 2005 02:38:52 [ permanent link ]
 Only in price. The ES comes with a V6 with only 225 HP @/only
249 FP of torque that comes on at too high of RPMs, that is
driving the WRONG end of what is supposed to be a sporty sedan.
One must buy a Lexus LS or the Lincoln LS to get a V8 that is
driving the correct set of wheels for a sporty sedan.


mike hunt



"D.D. Palmer" wrote:>
A $57000 Lexus LS430 is not a comparable car to a Lincoln LS...the Lexus ES> is more comparable.>
<BenDover@mailcity.­com> wrote in message> news:42652E1F.C178F­6E7@mailcity.com...>­ > In our fleet service business we service the vehicles of> > corporation, and government fleets. Since the federal deprecation> > laws require five years to depreciate the cost of vehicles, most> > corporation keep their vehicles for five years or 300K WOF. The> > corporate fleets look at the total cost of acquiring, insuring,> > maintaining, repairing, and replacing the vehicles they use as> > tools in their business. Over the years Ford Motor company> > vehicles have proven to be those that best meet that criteria.> > That is why Ford controls around 80% of all fleet sales. Because> > of that realization I personally began to look at the cost of> > acquiring, maintain and replacing my vehicles every two years. I> > come to the same conclusion in 1999 when the Lexus dealer what me> > to pay him $57,000 for a 1999 Lexus when I could buy the then new> > 2000 Lincoln LS for $37,000.> > I have owned both brands, apparently you have not. It's your> > money however spend it where you wish, WBMA> >
mike hunt>
Add comment
Elmo P. Shagnasty 26 April 2005 03:18:51 [ permanent link ]
 In article <426D717B.4EBE2E85@­mailcity.com>, BenDover@mailcity.c­om
wrote:
One must buy a Lexus LS or the Lincoln LS to get a V8 that is> driving the correct set of wheels for a sporty sedan.

Not true. Lexus sells other V8 RWD vehicles.
Add comment
Guest 26 April 2005 03:51:39 [ permanent link ]
 What other RWD sporty sedan does Lexus sell in the US, with a
V8? The don't sell a RWD V8 coupe or convertible either.


mike hunt



"Elmo P. Shagnasty" wrote:>
In article <426D717B.4EBE2E85@­mailcity.com>, BenDover@mailcity.c­om> wrote:>
One must buy a Lexus LS or the Lincoln LS to get a V8 that is> > driving the correct set of wheels for a sporty sedan.>
Not true. Lexus sells other V8 RWD vehicles.
Add comment
Elmo P. Shagnasty 26 April 2005 04:34:35 [ permanent link ]
 In article <426D828B.2AD7F83F@­mailcity.com>, BenDover@mailcity.c­om
wrote:
What other RWD sporty sedan does Lexus sell in the US, with a> V8?

GS, SC

Where do you live, under a rock?

Is the Lincoln the only RWD V8 sedan you could find?
Add comment
Ray O 26 April 2005 08:36:04 [ permanent link ]
 
<BenDover@mailcity.­com> wrote in message
news:426D828B.2AD7F­83F@mailcity.com...>­ What other RWD sporty sedan does Lexus sell in the US, with a> V8? The don't sell a RWD V8 coupe or convertible either.>
mike hunt>
Lexus RWD V8's available in the U.S. (back in 1999 and now)
GS 400 - now GS 430 - sporty sedan probably more comparable to Lincoln LS in
performance
LS 400 - now LS 430 - luxury sedan probably more comparable to Lincoln TC
SC 400 - now SC 430 - RWD coupe, current SC 430 has a retractable hard top
convertible/coupe

The IS 300 is a straight 6 RWD sedan

Price-wise, the FWD Lexus ES 330 is closer to the RWD Lincoln LS while the
RWD GS is closer to the FWD Continental so Lexus and Lincoln have different
offerings in these segments.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply


Add comment
Guest 26 April 2005 19:13:49 [ permanent link ]
 Lincoln no longer manufactures a FWD sedan, and I would buy one
of they did.. I only buy new RWD V8 vehicles evry two years and
the fact remains, for me to buy another RWD V8 Lexus sedan I
would have had to spend at least $20,000 more than I have been
paying to buy the Lincoln LS RWD V8 and that is the reason I no
longer buy Lexus vehicles. In my opinion based on the six or so
Lexus and Lincolns I have owned the Lincolns have been just as
reliable and a lot less expensive to replace when the time came.
You are free to buy the brand and type you prefer as well.


mike hunt



Ray O wrote:>

Lexus RWD V8's available in the U.S. (back in 1999 and now)> GS 400 - now GS 430 - sporty sedan probably more comparable to Lincoln LS in> performance> LS 400 - now LS 430 - luxury sedan probably more comparable to Lincoln TC> SC 400 - now SC 430 - RWD coupe, current SC 430 has a retractable hard top> convertible/coupe>
The IS 300 is a straight 6 RWD sedan>
Price-wise, the FWD Lexus ES 330 is closer to the RWD Lincoln LS while the> RWD GS is closer to the FWD Continental so Lexus and Lincoln have different> offerings in these segments.> --> Ray O> correct the return address punctuation to reply





Ray O wrote:>
<BenDover@mailcity.­com> wrote in message> news:426D828B.2AD7F­83F@mailcity.com...>­ > What other RWD sporty sedan does Lexus sell in the US, with a> > V8? The don't sell a RWD V8 coupe or convertible either.> >
mike hunt> >
Lexus RWD V8's available in the U.S. (back in 1999 and now)> GS 400 - now GS 430 - sporty sedan probably more comparable to Lincoln LS in> performance> LS 400 - now LS 430 - luxury sedan probably more comparable to Lincoln TC> SC 400 - now SC 430 - RWD coupe, current SC 430 has a retractable hard top> convertible/coupe>
The IS 300 is a straight 6 RWD sedan>
Price-wise, the FWD Lexus ES 330 is closer to the RWD Lincoln LS while the> RWD GS is closer to the FWD Continental so Lexus and Lincoln have different> offerings in these segments.> --> Ray O> correct the return address punctuation to reply
Add comment
D.D. Palmer 26 April 2005 19:15:50 [ permanent link ]
 Yeah but if you buy every 2 years, have you considered the TRUE cost to own?
In many cases, the more expensive Lexus is actually cheaper to own because
they hold their value so much better than Lincoln over the first 2-3 years.


<BenDover@mailcity.­com> wrote in message
news:426E5AAD.F9E41­4BF@mailcity.com...>­ Lincoln no longer manufactures a FWD sedan, and I would buy one> of they did.. I only buy new RWD V8 vehicles evry two years and> the fact remains, for me to buy another RWD V8 Lexus sedan I> would have had to spend at least $20,000 more than I have been> paying to buy the Lincoln LS RWD V8 and that is the reason I no> longer buy Lexus vehicles. In my opinion based on the six or so> Lexus and Lincolns I have owned the Lincolns have been just as> reliable and a lot less expensive to replace when the time came.> You are free to buy the brand and type you prefer as well.>
mike hunt>
Ray O wrote:>>
Lexus RWD V8's available in the U.S. (back in 1999 and now)>> GS 400 - now GS 430 - sporty sedan probably more comparable to Lincoln LS >> in>> performance>> LS 400 - now LS 430 - luxury sedan probably more comparable to Lincoln TC>> SC 400 - now SC 430 - RWD coupe, current SC 430 has a retractable hard >> top>> convertible/coupe>>­
The IS 300 is a straight 6 RWD sedan>>
Price-wise, the FWD Lexus ES 330 is closer to the RWD Lincoln LS while >> the>> RWD GS is closer to the FWD Continental so Lexus and Lincoln have >> different>> offerings in these segments.>> -->> Ray O>> correct the return address punctuation to reply>
Ray O wrote:>>
<BenDover@mailcity.­com> wrote in message>> news:426D828B.2AD7F­83F@mailcity.com...>­> > What other RWD sporty sedan does Lexus sell in the US, with a>> > V8? The don't sell a RWD V8 coupe or convertible either.>> >
mike hunt>> >
Lexus RWD V8's available in the U.S. (back in 1999 and now)>> GS 400 - now GS 430 - sporty sedan probably more comparable to Lincoln LS >> in>> performance>> LS 400 - now LS 430 - luxury sedan probably more comparable to Lincoln TC>> SC 400 - now SC 430 - RWD coupe, current SC 430 has a retractable hard >> top>> convertible/coupe>>­
The IS 300 is a straight 6 RWD sedan>>
Price-wise, the FWD Lexus ES 330 is closer to the RWD Lincoln LS while >> the>> RWD GS is closer to the FWD Continental so Lexus and Lincoln have >> different>> offerings in these segments.>> -->> Ray O>> correct the return address punctuation to reply


Add comment
Ray O 26 April 2005 20:26:41 [ permanent link ]
 
<BenDover@mailcity.­com> wrote in message
news:426E5AAD.F9E41­4BF@mailcity.com...>­ Lincoln no longer manufactures a FWD sedan, and I would buy one> of they did..

I stand corrected! I thought Lincoln still offered the Continental but
according to their web site, their only sedan offerings are the LS and Town
Car.
I only buy new RWD V8 vehicles evry two years andthe fact remains, for me > to buy another RWD V8 Lexus sedan I> would have had to spend at least $20,000 more than I have been> paying to buy the Lincoln LS RWD V8 and that is the reason I no> longer buy Lexus vehicles. In my opinion based on the six or so> Lexus and Lincolns I have owned the Lincolns have been just as> reliable and a lot less expensive to replace when the time came.> You are free to buy the brand and type you prefer as well.>
mike hunt>

First you said that you would buy a FWD sedan if Lincoln manufactured one,
then you say that you only buy RWD V8 vehicles.

I am not trying to convince you to purchase a Lexus or Toyota over a Lincoln
or Ford. I agree with you that people should buy the brand and type they
prefer.

My point is that when looking at competing vehicles, the Lincoln LS competes
more with the RWD V8 Lexus GS 430 than the Lexus LS 430. The Lincoln LS
probably still lists for less than the Lexus GS but the price difference is
a lot less than the $20,000 you were stating, probably around half of that.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply


Add comment
Guest 26 April 2005 23:03:21 [ permanent link ]
 That may be your opinion but not my experience. I have actually
owned both brands. The fact is it cost me much more to replace
my Lexus' every two years than it has to replace my Linoolns
every two years. You need to consider the percentage of the
drive home price retained, when comparing deprecation not dollar
for dollar, in any event.



mike hunt



"D.D. Palmer" wrote:>
Yeah but if you buy every 2 years, have you considered the TRUE cost to own?> In many cases, the more expensive Lexus is actually cheaper to own because> they hold their value so much better than Lincoln over the first 2-3 years.>
<BenDover@mailcity.­com> wrote in message> news:426E5AAD.F9E41­4BF@mailcity.com...>­ > Lincoln no longer manufactures a FWD sedan, and I would buy one> > of they did.. I only buy new RWD V8 vehicles evry two years and> > the fact remains, for me to buy another RWD V8 Lexus sedan I> > would have had to spend at least $20,000 more than I have been> > paying to buy the Lincoln LS RWD V8 and that is the reason I no> > longer buy Lexus vehicles. In my opinion based on the six or so> > Lexus and Lincolns I have owned the Lincolns have been just as> > reliable and a lot less expensive to replace when the time came.> > You are free to buy the brand and type you prefer as well.> >
mike hunt> >
Ray O wrote:> >>
Lexus RWD V8's available in the U.S. (back in 1999 and now)> >> GS 400 - now GS 430 - sporty sedan probably more comparable to Lincoln LS> >> in> >> performance> >> LS 400 - now LS 430 - luxury sedan probably more comparable to Lincoln TC> >> SC 400 - now SC 430 - RWD coupe, current SC 430 has a retractable hard> >> top> >> convertible/coupe> >>
The IS 300 is a straight 6 RWD sedan> >>
Price-wise, the FWD Lexus ES 330 is closer to the RWD Lincoln LS while> >> the> >> RWD GS is closer to the FWD Continental so Lexus and Lincoln have> >> different> >> offerings in these segments.> >> --> >> Ray O> >> correct the return address punctuation to reply> >
Ray O wrote:> >>
<BenDover@mailcity.­com> wrote in message> >> news:426D828B.2AD7F­83F@mailcity.com...>­ >> > What other RWD sporty sedan does Lexus sell in the US, with a> >> > V8? The don't sell a RWD V8 coupe or convertible either.> >> >
mike hunt> >> >
Lexus RWD V8's available in the U.S. (back in 1999 and now)> >> GS 400 - now GS 430 - sporty sedan probably more comparable to Lincoln LS> >> in> >> performance> >> LS 400 - now LS 430 - luxury sedan probably more comparable to Lincoln TC> >> SC 400 - now SC 430 - RWD coupe, current SC 430 has a retractable hard> >> top> >> convertible/coupe> >>
The IS 300 is a straight 6 RWD sedan> >>
Price-wise, the FWD Lexus ES 330 is closer to the RWD Lincoln LS while> >> the> >> RWD GS is closer to the FWD Continental so Lexus and Lincoln have> >> different> >> offerings in these segments.> >> --> >> Ray O> >> correct the return address punctuation to reply
Add comment
Guest 26 April 2005 23:25:06 [ permanent link ]
 looking at web sites is one thing but you obviously have not
tried to actually buy either, while trading either, have you? I
have, and my drive home figures are correct.


mike hunt



Ray O wrote:>
<BenDover@mailcity.­com> wrote in message> news:426E5AAD.F9E41­4BF@mailcity.com...>­ > Lincoln no longer manufactures a FWD sedan, and I would buy one> > of they did..>
I stand corrected! I thought Lincoln still offered the Continental but> according to their web site, their only sedan offerings are the LS and Town> Car.>
I only buy new RWD V8 vehicles evry two years andthe fact remains, for me> > to buy another RWD V8 Lexus sedan I> > would have had to spend at least $20,000 more than I have been> > paying to buy the Lincoln LS RWD V8 and that is the reason I no> > longer buy Lexus vehicles. In my opinion based on the six or so> > Lexus and Lincolns I have owned the Lincolns have been just as> > reliable and a lot less expensive to replace when the time came.> > You are free to buy the brand and type you prefer as well.> >
mike hunt> >
First you said that you would buy a FWD sedan if Lincoln manufactured one,> then you say that you only buy RWD V8 vehicles.>
I am not trying to convince you to purchase a Lexus or Toyota over a Lincoln> or Ford. I agree with you that people should buy the brand and type they> prefer.>
My point is that when looking at competing vehicles, the Lincoln LS competes> more with the RWD V8 Lexus GS 430 than the Lexus LS 430. The Lincoln LS> probably still lists for less than the Lexus GS but the price difference is> a lot less than the $20,000 you were stating, probably around half of that.> --> Ray O> correct the return address punctuation to reply
Add comment
Elmo P. Shagnasty 26 April 2005 23:50:03 [ permanent link ]
 In article <G8udnaASIuK5xvPfRV­n-gw@comcast.com>,
"D.D. Palmer" <ddpalmer@hotmail.c­om> wrote:
Yeah but if you buy every 2 years, have you considered the TRUE cost to own?

No, he hasn't.

He knows the price of everything, and the cost of nothing.
Add comment
Ray O 27 April 2005 00:50:55 [ permanent link ]
 Mike Hunt,

I am merely asking for clarification because your responses "RWD V8" and
"the one priced at $57,000" are vague and did not answer the question. All
you have done is respond like a politician with rude accusations instead of
actually answering the question, which was, "which Lexus model did you shop
to compare with the Lincoln LS?"

To answer your question, I am driving a Lexus LS, I did not shop the Lincoln
LS, and I did not trade a car for the Lexus because my son is driving my
last car.

I am not questioning your drive home figures or accusing you of being wrong
or saying the Lincoln LS is a poor choice. I was just seeking
clarification.

You know as well or better than me that if ownership costs were the only
deciding factor when choosing a vehicle, everyone would be driving an
econobox like a Focus, Echo, or comparable Korean offering and make their
purchase decisions based purely on objective factors exactly like a fleet
operator. Fortunately, things like style, interior space, seating comfort,
luggage space, features, performance, drivability, reliability, etc. also
matter to a lot of buyers and so consumers have a lot of choices. If it
were not for those other factors, Toyota would have to drastically change
its pricing in the U.S. to stay in business and Lincoln, Lexus, and all
other luxury makers would be gone.

--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply

<MelvinGibson@mailc­ity.com> wrote in message
news:426E9592.2E401­C9@mailcity.com...> looking at web sites is one thing but you obviously have not> tried to actually buy either, while trading either, have you? I> have, and my drive home figures are correct.>
mike hunt>

Ray O wrote:>>
<BenDover@mailcity.­com> wrote in message>> news:426E5AAD.F9E41­4BF@mailcity.com...>­> > Lincoln no longer manufactures a FWD sedan, and I would buy one>> > of they did..>>
I stand corrected! I thought Lincoln still offered the Continental but>> according to their web site, their only sedan offerings are the LS and >> Town>> Car.>>
I only buy new RWD V8 vehicles evry two years andthe fact remains, for >> > me>> > to buy another RWD V8 Lexus sedan I>> > would have had to spend at least $20,000 more than I have been>> > paying to buy the Lincoln LS RWD V8 and that is the reason I no>> > longer buy Lexus vehicles. In my opinion based on the six or so>> > Lexus and Lincolns I have owned the Lincolns have been just as>> > reliable and a lot less expensive to replace when the time came.>> > You are free to buy the brand and type you prefer as well.>> >
mike hunt>> >
First you said that you would buy a FWD sedan if Lincoln manufactured >> one,>> then you say that you only buy RWD V8 vehicles.>>
I am not trying to convince you to purchase a Lexus or Toyota over a >> Lincoln>> or Ford. I agree with you that people should buy the brand and type they>> prefer.>>
My point is that when looking at competing vehicles, the Lincoln LS >> competes>> more with the RWD V8 Lexus GS 430 than the Lexus LS 430. The Lincoln LS>> probably still lists for less than the Lexus GS but the price difference >> is>> a lot less than the $20,000 you were stating, probably around half of >> that.>> -->> Ray O>> correct the return address punctuation to reply


Add comment
Scott in Florida 27 April 2005 01:02:44 [ permanent link ]
 On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 15:03:21 -0400, MelvinGibson@mailci­ty.com wrote:
That may be your opinion but not my experience. I have actually>owned both brands. The fact is it cost me much more to replace>my Lexus' every two years than it has to replace my Linoolns>every two years. You need to consider the percentage of the>drive home price retained, when comparing deprecation not dollar>for dollar, in any event.

The difference is you don't HAVE to replace a Lexus every two
years.... LOL

mike hunt>

--
Scott in Florida
Add comment
Guest 27 April 2005 02:31:16 [ permanent link ]
 I know exactly the cost. It has been around $4,000 to $4,500 a
year, depending on the amount of the price increase in two years,
plus the cost of the gas I use. The dealership provides free
annual inspects and all of the scheduled maintenance is covered
by the warranty. ;)


mike hunt




"Elmo P. Shagnasty" wrote:>
In article <G8udnaASIuK5xvPfRV­n-gw@comcast.com>,> "D.D. Palmer" <ddpalmer@hotmail.c­om> wrote:>
Yeah but if you buy every 2 years, have you considered the TRUE cost to own?>
No, he hasn't.>
He knows the price of everything, and the cost of nothing.
Add comment
Guest 27 April 2005 03:22:20 [ permanent link ]
 What difference does it make, I gave you plenty of information?
The first Lincoln LS I bought was a 2000 model that came out
early in 1999. At the time the 2000 Lexus 400 was not available
for another 4 of 5 months. The Lexus I owned was a 1997 LS with
29K on the clock. I pass my cars to any my children or grand
children who may happen to want them. I didn't say the Lexus
cost $57,000 I said the dealer wanted nearly $57,000 as the total
drive home price, and he would not budge, even though I had
bought a total of seven vehicles from him in the past. My first
Lexus was only $37,000 but they went up very rapidly in price
thereafter. He figured once one owns a Lexus they will not by
anything else, i guess. I stopped at the Lincoln dealer down the
street drove the then new model and ended up buying a 2000 LS V8
for a total drive home price of $37,200. Since then I have
purchased a 2001, 3003 and a 2005. None of them cost anywhere
need what I was paying every two years for my Lexus LSs.

This whole discussion is way off the point of my original post to
begin with. The original poster was asking about the 2005
Avalon. I suggested to him that as long as he was considering a
$35,000 car and if that was the size car he was interested in
that he might want to take a look at and price a Lincoln LS,
since he could buy a luxury car for the price of a near luxury
car. When i buy cars I compare the drive home price the total
amount of my check. I saved so much money buying Lincolns rather
than Lexus' I have purchased a 99, 01, 03 and 2005 Mustang GT
convertibles from him as well with the saving paying most of the
price. In 99 i bought the two cars for only around $8,000 more
than I would have paid to buy just the Lexus.

By the way my son in law just put a power steering pump on that
97 Lexus of mine, that he now owns, at a cost of $1,615.


mike hunt



Ray O wrote:>
Mike Hunt,>
I am merely asking for clarification because your responses "RWD V8" and> "the one priced at $57,000" are vague and did not answer the question.
Add comment
Ray O 27 April 2005 04:27:09 [ permanent link ]
 <MelvinGibson@mailci­ty.com> wrote in message
news:426ECD2C.D4AAF­354@mailcity.com...>­ What difference does it make, I gave you plenty of information?

The difference is the target market of the vehicles. I agree with you that
the Lincoln LS and the new Avalon are targeting the same buyer; I disagree
that the Lincoln LS and a Lexus LS are targeting the same buyer.

One could say that a FWD Corolla LE costs less than a FWD Saab but those
cars are targeted to different people.

You don't have to be defensive with me. Like you, I believe that people
should test drive and do their homework before buying a vehicle. I don't
dispute that the overall ownership cost of a Ford or Lincoln is lower if
someone wants to replace their vehicle with a new one every 3 or 4 years.
If, however, factors besides overall ownership cost are important, then
perhaps other brands and models make sense. Why would someone buy a
Testarossa over an MR2 or a Mustang GT? Why are Toyota, Lexus, BMW, Daimler
Chrysler, and all the rest still in business?
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply







Part of that homework is evaluating what is important. Even
The first Lincoln LS I bought was a 2000 model that came out> early in 1999. At the time the 2000 Lexus 400 was not available> for another 4 of 5 months. The Lexus I owned was a 1997 LS with> 29K on the clock. I pass my cars to any my children or grand> children who may happen to want them. I didn't say the Lexus> cost $57,000 I said the dealer wanted nearly $57,000 as the total> drive home price, and he would not budge, even though I had> bought a total of seven vehicles from him in the past. My first> Lexus was only $37,000 but they went up very rapidly in price> thereafter. He figured once one owns a Lexus they will not by> anything else, i guess. I stopped at the Lincoln dealer down the> street drove the then new model and ended up buying a 2000 LS V8> for a total drive home price of $37,200. Since then I have> purchased a 2001, 3003 and a 2005. None of them cost anywhere> need what I was paying every two years for my Lexus LSs.>
This whole discussion is way off the point of my original post to> begin with. The original poster was asking about the 2005> Avalon. I suggested to him that as long as he was considering a> $35,000 car and if that was the size car he was interested in> that he might want to take a look at and price a Lincoln LS,> since he could buy a luxury car for the price of a near luxury> car. When i buy cars I compare the drive home price the total> amount of my check. I saved so much money buying Lincolns rather> than Lexus' I have purchased a 99, 01, 03 and 2005 Mustang GT> convertibles from him as well with the saving paying most of the> price. In 99 i bought the two cars for only around $8,000 more> than I would have paid to buy just the Lexus.>
By the way my son in law just put a power steering pump on that> 97 Lexus of mine, that he now owns, at a cost of $1,615.>
mike hunt>
Ray O wrote:>>
Mike Hunt,>>
I am merely asking for clarification because your responses "RWD V8" and>> "the one priced at $57,000" are vague and did not answer the question.


Add comment
HarleyVA@nospam.net 27 April 2005 05:24:36 [ permanent link ]
 On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 19:27:09 -0500, "Ray O"
<rokigawa@tristaras­sociatesDOT.com> graced this newsgroup with:
<MelvinGibson@mail­city.com> wrote in message >news:426ECD2C.D4AA­F354@mailcity.com...­>> What difference does it make, I gave you plenty of information?>
The difference is the target market of the vehicles. I agree with you that >the Lincoln LS and the new Avalon are targeting the same buyer; I disagree >that the Lincoln LS and a Lexus LS are targeting the same buyer.>
One could say that a FWD Corolla LE costs less than a FWD Saab but those >cars are targeted to different people.>
You don't have to be defensive with me. Like you, I believe that people >should test drive and do their homework before buying a vehicle. I don't >dispute that the overall ownership cost of a Ford or Lincoln is lower if >someone wants to replace their vehicle with a new one every 3 or 4 years. >If, however, factors besides overall ownership cost are important, then >perhaps other brands and models make sense. Why would someone buy a >Testarossa over an MR2 or a Mustang GT? Why are Toyota, Lexus, BMW, Daimler >Chrysler, and all the rest still in business?


..if someone is buying a new car every 24 months, it's hardly
surprising that there's no mechanical problems, however in 24 months
the residual value of the Lincoln is 50% of it's original value and
the Lexus is is 70%.

I'm sure there must be a logical reason why someone would opt to
voluntarily lose so much money on a depreciated car like the Lincoln
but the total logic of paying cash for a car and keeping it for only
24 months over and over again totally escapes me.


Add comment
Ray O 27 April 2005 08:56:13 [ permanent link ]
 
"HarleyVA@nospam.ne­t" <bounce@bounce.net>­ wrote in message
news:v8qt61t5lig42u­m1t4jv12vs5scmb1u2rd­@4ax.com...> On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 19:27:09 -0500, "Ray O"> <rokigawa@tristaras­sociatesDOT.com> graced this newsgroup with:>
<MelvinGibson@mai­lcity.com> wrote in message>>news:426EC­D2C.D4AAF354@mailcit­y.com...>>> What difference does it make, I gave you plenty of information?>>
The difference is the target market of the vehicles. I agree with you >>that>>the Lincoln LS and the new Avalon are targeting the same buyer; I disagree>>that the Lincoln LS and a Lexus LS are targeting the same buyer.>>
One could say that a FWD Corolla LE costs less than a FWD Saab but those>>cars are targeted to different people.>>
You don't have to be defensive with me. Like you, I believe that people>>should test drive and do their homework before buying a vehicle. I don't>>dispute that the overall ownership cost of a Ford or Lincoln is lower if>>someone wants to replace their vehicle with a new one every 3 or 4 years.>>If, however, factors besides overall ownership cost are important, then>>perhaps other brands and models make sense. Why would someone buy a>>Testarossa over an MR2 or a Mustang GT? Why are Toyota, Lexus, BMW, >>Daimler>>Chrysler­, and all the rest still in business?>
..if someone is buying a new car every 24 months, it's hardly> surprising that there's no mechanical problems, however in 24 months> the residual value of the Lincoln is 50% of it's original value and> the Lexus is is 70%.>
I'm sure there must be a logical reason why someone would opt to> voluntarily lose so much money on a depreciated car like the Lincoln> but the total logic of paying cash for a car and keeping it for only> 24 months over and over again totally escapes me.>
There is satisfaction in driving a new car. I'm still having a tough time
adjusting to keeping a car for 7+ years instead of 3 months.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply


Add comment
Scott in Florida 27 April 2005 16:00:54 [ permanent link ]
 On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:24:36 -0400, "HarleyVA@nospam.ne­t"
<bounce@bounce.net>­ wrote:
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 19:27:09 -0500, "Ray O"><rokigawa@trista­rassociatesDOT.com> graced this newsgroup with:>
<MelvinGibson@mai­lcity.com> wrote in message >>news:426ECD2C.D4A­AF354@mailcity.com..­.>>> What difference does it make, I gave you plenty of information?>>
The difference is the target market of the vehicles. I agree with you that >>the Lincoln LS and the new Avalon are targeting the same buyer; I disagree >>that the Lincoln LS and a Lexus LS are targeting the same buyer.>>
One could say that a FWD Corolla LE costs less than a FWD Saab but those >>cars are targeted to different people.>>
You don't have to be defensive with me. Like you, I believe that people >>should test drive and do their homework before buying a vehicle. I don't >>dispute that the overall ownership cost of a Ford or Lincoln is lower if >>someone wants to replace their vehicle with a new one every 3 or 4 years. >>If, however, factors besides overall ownership cost are important, then >>perhaps other brands and models make sense. Why would someone buy a >>Testarossa over an MR2 or a Mustang GT? Why are Toyota, Lexus, BMW, Daimler >>Chrysler, and all the rest still in business?>
..if someone is buying a new car every 24 months, it's hardly>surprising that there's no mechanical problems, however in 24 months>the residual value of the Lincoln is 50% of it's original value and>the Lexus is is 70%.>
I'm sure there must be a logical reason why someone would opt to>voluntarily lose so much money on a depreciated car like the Lincoln>but the total logic of paying cash for a car and keeping it for only>24 months over and over again totally escapes me.>

When you are 78 or so and have a sh*t load of money...it makes
sense...lol


--
Scott in Florida
Add comment
Scott in Florida 27 April 2005 16:02:54 [ permanent link ]
 On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:56:13 -0500, "Ray O"
<rokigawa@tristaras­sociatesDOT.com> wrote:
"HarleyVA@nospam.n­et" <bounce@bounce.net>­ wrote in message >news:v8qt61t5lig42­um1t4jv12vs5scmb1u2r­d@4ax.com...>> On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 19:27:09 -0500, "Ray O">> <rokigawa@tristaras­sociatesDOT.com> graced this newsgroup with:>>
<MelvinGibson@ma­ilcity.com> wrote in message>>>news:426E­CD2C.D4AAF354@mailci­ty.com...>>>> What difference does it make, I gave you plenty of information?>>>
The difference is the target market of the vehicles. I agree with you >>>that>>>the Lincoln LS and the new Avalon are targeting the same buyer; I disagree>>>that the Lincoln LS and a Lexus LS are targeting the same buyer.>>>
One could say that a FWD Corolla LE costs less than a FWD Saab but those>>>cars are targeted to different people.>>>
You don't have to be defensive with me. Like you, I believe that people>>>should test drive and do their homework before buying a vehicle. I don't>>>dispute that the overall ownership cost of a Ford or Lincoln is lower if>>>someone wants to replace their vehicle with a new one every 3 or 4 years.>>>If, however, factors besides overall ownership cost are important, then>>>perhaps other brands and models make sense. Why would someone buy a>>>Testarossa over an MR2 or a Mustang GT? Why are Toyota, Lexus, BMW, >>>Daimler>>>Chrysl­er, and all the rest still in business?>>
..if someone is buying a new car every 24 months, it's hardly>> surprising that there's no mechanical problems, however in 24 months>> the residual value of the Lincoln is 50% of it's original value and>> the Lexus is is 70%.>>
I'm sure there must be a logical reason why someone would opt to>> voluntarily lose so much money on a depreciated car like the Lincoln>> but the total logic of paying cash for a car and keeping it for only>> 24 months over and over again totally escapes me.>>
There is satisfaction in driving a new car. I'm still having a tough time >adjusting to keeping a car for 7+ years instead of 3 months.

7 years?

Let's see.... My '92 Corolla is 13 years old
My '97 Corolla is 8 years old

They are not even close to being traded....


--
Scott in Florida
Add comment
Ray O 27 April 2005 19:00:52 [ permanent link ]
 
"Scott in Florida" <NotInTheNextLifeti­me@nope.ucan't> wrote in message
news:nmvu61ldtotkv0­sjktobetsoej5e7b602k­@4ax.com...

<snip>>>..if someone is buying a new car every 24 months, it's hardly>>surprising that there's no mechanical problems, however in 24 months>>the residual value of the Lincoln is 50% of it's original value and>>the Lexus is is 70%.>>
I'm sure there must be a logical reason why someone would opt to>>voluntarily lose so much money on a depreciated car like the Lincoln>>but the total logic of paying cash for a car and keeping it for only>>24 months over and over again totally escapes me.>>
When you are 78 or so and have a sh*t load of money...it makes> sense...lol>
--> Scott in Florida

... or are accustomed to maintaining fleets where vehicles get rotated every
2-3 years.

The good news is that late-model trade-ins provide a good supply of
late-model used cars.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply


Add comment
Guest 27 April 2005 19:43:21 [ permanent link ]
 The percentage you perceive are not actually what you perceive
them to be for one thing. I thought I made it clear it was
costing me MORE money to replace my Lexus' every two years, than
it is costing me to replace my Lincoln every two years. That if
why I now buy Lincolns rather than Lexus'.


mike hunt



"HarleyVA@nospam.ne­t" wrote:>
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 19:27:09 -0500, "Ray O"
..if someone is buying a new car every 24 months, it's hardly> surprising that there's no mechanical problems, however in 24 months> the residual value of the Lincoln is 50% of it's original value and> the Lexus is is 70%.>
I'm sure there must be a logical reason why someone would opt to> voluntarily lose so much money on a depreciated car like the Lincoln> but the total logic of paying cash for a car and keeping it for only> 24 months over and over again totally escapes me.
Add comment
Guest 27 April 2005 19:54:31 [ permanent link ]
 One need never replace any vehicle if the chose, particularly
when they can't afford new cars.


mike hunt



Scott in Florida wrote:>
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 15:03:21 -0400, MelvinGibson@mailci­ty.com wrote:>
That may be your opinion but not my experience. I have actually> >owned both brands. The fact is it cost me much more to replace> >my Lexus' every two years than it has to replace my Linoolns> >every two years. You need to consider the percentage of the> >drive home price retained, when comparing deprecation not dollar> >for dollar, in any event.>
The difference is you don't HAVE to replace a Lexus every two> years.... LOL>
mike hunt> >
--> Scott in Florida
Add comment
Ray O 27 April 2005 19:58:53 [ permanent link ]
 
<MelvinGibson@mailc­ity.com> wrote in message
news:426FB319.EE66B­3A1@mailcity.com...>­ The percentage you perceive are not actually what you perceive> them to be for one thing. I thought I made it clear it was> costing me MORE money to replace my Lexus' every two years, than> it is costing me to replace my Lincoln every two years. That if> why I now buy Lincolns rather than Lexus'.>
mike hunt>
Just curious, why the Lincoln LS over the RWD V8 Crown Vic or Grand Marquis?
Wouldn't the Crown Vic or Grand Marquis offer RWD V8 performance and comfort
for even less than the Lincoln LS?
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply


Add comment
Gord Beaman 28 April 2005 01:15:59 [ permanent link ]
 Scott in Florida <NotInTheNextLifeti­me@nope.ucan't> wrote:
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:24:36 -0400, "HarleyVA@nospam.ne­t"><bounce@bounce.ne­t> wrote:>
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 19:27:09 -0500, "Ray O">><rokigawa@trist­arassociatesDOT.com>­ graced this newsgroup with:>>
<MelvinGibson@ma­ilcity.com> wrote in message >>>news:426ECD2C.D4­AAF354@mailcity.com.­..>>>> What difference does it make, I gave you plenty of information?>>>
The difference is the target market of the vehicles. I agree with you that >>>the Lincoln LS and the new Avalon are targeting the same buyer; I disagree >>>that the Lincoln LS and a Lexus LS are targeting the same buyer.>>>
One could say that a FWD Corolla LE costs less than a FWD Saab but those >>>cars are targeted to different people.>>>
You don't have to be defensive with me. Like you, I believe that people >>>should test drive and do their homework before buying a vehicle. I don't >>>dispute that the overall ownership cost of a Ford or Lincoln is lower if >>>someone wants to replace their vehicle with a new one every 3 or 4 years. >>>If, however, factors besides overall ownership cost are important, then >>>perhaps other brands and models make sense. Why would someone buy a >>>Testarossa over an MR2 or a Mustang GT? Why are Toyota, Lexus, BMW, Daimler >>>Chrysler, and all the rest still in business?>>
..if someone is buying a new car every 24 months, it's hardly>>surprising that there's no mechanical problems, however in 24 months>>the residual value of the Lincoln is 50% of it's original value and>>the Lexus is is 70%.>>
I'm sure there must be a logical reason why someone would opt to>>voluntarily lose so much money on a depreciated car like the Lincoln>>but the total logic of paying cash for a car and keeping it for only>>24 months over and over again totally escapes me.>>
When you are 78 or so and have a sh*t load of money...it makes>sense...lol>
Damned right!...why save it?...what for?...my philosophy is to
give your kids a reasonable education, a good moral grounding, a
consideration for others, feelings for those less fortunate than
themselves, no expectations of a free lunch from poppa, then let
them fly on their own.

NOW THEN MOMMA, let's boogie!......etc...­ :)­

-Gord.

"I'm trying to get as old as I can,
and it must be working 'cause I'm
the oldest now that I've ever been"
Add comment
Guest 28 April 2005 02:39:03 [ permanent link ]
 Two reasons, my wife drives that car often as well and I happen
to prefer the size, better handling, and more power available in
the lincoln LS. Yes indeed one can buy a really nice Grand
Marquis LS for a LOT less than the Lincoln LS, around 22K. My
one grandson did just that last fall for around 18K, with all of
the discounts available at that time. All of his associates that
own imports and yuppie mobiles, that happen to ride in his GM,
cannot believe he got so much car for so little money, especially
the guy with the 18K Civic. ;)


mike hunt




Ray O wrote:>
<MelvinGibson@mailc­ity.com> wrote in message> news:426FB319.EE66B­3A1@mailcity.com...>­ > The percentage you perceive are not actually what you perceive> > them to be for one thing. I thought I made it clear it was> > costing me MORE money to replace my Lexus' every two years, than> > it is costing me to replace my Lincoln every two years. That if> > why I now buy Lincolns rather than Lexus'.> >
mike hunt> >
Just curious, why the Lincoln LS over the RWD V8 Crown Vic or Grand Marquis?> Wouldn't the Crown Vic or Grand Marquis offer RWD V8 performance and comfort> for even less than the Lincoln LS?> --> Ray O> correct the return address punctuation to reply
Add comment
Ray O 28 April 2005 03:09:32 [ permanent link ]
 
<RustyFendor@mailci­ty.com> wrote in message
news:42701487.A4511­137@mailcity.com...>­ Two reasons, my wife drives that car often as well and I happen> to prefer the size, better handling, and more power available in> the lincoln LS. Yes indeed one can buy a really nice Grand> Marquis LS for a LOT less than the Lincoln LS, around 22K. My> one grandson did just that last fall for around 18K, with all of> the discounts available at that time. All of his associates that> own imports and yuppie mobiles, that happen to ride in his GM,> cannot believe he got so much car for so little money, especially> the guy with the 18K Civic. ;)>
mike hunt>
Mike,

LOL! Keeping the wife happy is all the reason you need to spend a little
more on the LS over a CV or GM!
In my house, when the wife is happy, everyone is happy and when the wife is
on the warpath, everyone hides, including the dog and cats!
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply


Add comment
Guest 28 April 2005 03:37:12 [ permanent link ]
 I do all that as well as endowing several universities, libraries
and hospitals while making work for American workers in a
assembly plant run by an American tax paying corporation. By the
way I'm 79 LOL


mike hunt



Gord Seaman wrote:>
Scott in Florida <NotInTheNextLifeti­me@nope.ucan't> wrote:>
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:24:36 -0400, "HarleyVA@nospam.ne­t"
I'm sure there must be a logical reason why someone > >>but the total logic of paying cash for a car and keeping it for only> >>24 months over and over again totally escapes me.> >>
When you are 78 or so and have a sh*t load of money...it makes> >sense...lol> >
Damned right!...why save it?...what for?...my philosophy is to> give your kids a reasonable education, a good moral grounding, a> consideration for others, feelings for those less fortunate than> themselves, no expectations of a free lunch from poppa, then let> them fly on their own.>
NOW THEN MOMMA, let's boogie!......etc...­ :)­>
-Gord.>
"I'm trying to get as old as I can,> and it must be working 'cause I'm> the oldest now that I've ever been"
Add comment
Guest 28 April 2005 04:21:55 [ permanent link ]
 Your wife allows cats and dogs in the house???? ;)


mike hunt



Ray O wrote:>
<RustyFendor@mailci­ty.com> wrote in message> news:42701487.A4511­137@mailcity.com...>­ > Two reasons, my wife drives that car often as well and I happen> > to prefer the size, better handling, and more power available in> > the lincoln LS. Yes indeed one can buy a really nice Grand> > Marquis LS for a LOT less than the Lincoln LS, around 22K. My> > one grandson did just that last fall for around 18K, with all of> > the discounts available at that time. All of his associates that> > own imports and yuppie mobiles, that happen to ride in his GM,> > cannot believe he got so much car for so little money, especially> > the guy with the 18K Civic. ;)> >
mike hunt> >
Mike,>
LOL! Keeping the wife happy is all the reason you need to spend a little> more on the LS over a CV or GM!> In my house, when the wife is happy, everyone is happy and when the wife is> on the warpath, everyone hides, including the dog and cats!> --> Ray O> correct the return address punctuation to reply
Add comment
Ray O 28 April 2005 07:47:30 [ permanent link ]
 
<RustyFendor@mailci­ty.com> wrote in message
news:42702CA3.E7E68­CE6@mailcity.com...>­ Your wife allows cats and dogs in the house???? ;)>
mike hunt>
She wanted them, not me! Guess who won that debate?
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply


Add comment
Kgold 29 April 2005 20:41:41 [ permanent link ]
 "D.D. Palmer" <ddpalmer@hotmail.c­om> writes:> I HAD the WR. Like I said, they did not last. I will grant it that I am in > Pittsburgh and there are lots of hills. Even the best Michelin tires don't > last half as long here as in the flatlands. Neverthless, the Nokians, at > about $700 installed for 4 tires, was a very expensive solution to the snow > problem. Next season I'll try Michelin Arctic Alpines I believe. And I might > only put them on the rear, in spite of what "auto enthusiasts" say.

I have Arctic Alpines on two cars, and they seem be wearing as well as
the OEM all seasons I use in the summer. Since that makes them free,
there's no reason NOT to get 4.

I have Nokian NRW's on one car, and they have about 50k miles on them
with plenty of tread left.

--
Ken Goldman kgold@watson.ibm.co­m 914-784-7646
Add comment
 

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