Re: 1987 Plymouth Reliant 2.5L won't start (early model)

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Re: 1987 Plymouth Reliant 2.5L won't start (early model)
Joe Pfeiffer 7 April 2005 00:22:00
	"Viper2" <net2000man@yahoo.com> writes: I'm reaching out to those Chrysler/Plymouth gurus out there for help.> I'm almost done with this vehicle, despite replacing the head gasket> and exhaust system recently. Here's what has happened -> 1 - Started the car to leave the office, it stalled out and wouldn't> restart. I have ample spark and fuel delivery.> 2 - So far I have replaced: plugs, wires, ignition coil, MAP sensor,> ECM (power module located along driver-side fender wall behind the> battery), fuel filter, distributor cap, rotor and ignition pickup (Hall> Effect sensor). If you had ample fuel and ignition, why did you replace all these parts? It's a whole lot cheaper and less frustrating to figure out what's wrong first, and then only replace what you need to. I've checked the error codes via the ignition switch 'on-off-on-off-on'> sequence, and all I get is '12 55'. If I'v read the Chilton's manual> correctly, a code 12 is supposed to be "transaxle unlock relay", which> for the life in me I have never heard of, unless they're referencing a> neutral safety switch. If anyone can tell me if I've read the code> incorrectly I'd sure like to know. I thought the code 12 was the> opening sequence for any/all codes off the ignition switch method, but> maybe I'm wrong? First off, toss the Chilton's and get a real factory service manual. Quite a few people claim they can't afford the FSM; the way you're throwing money at this problem, you can certainly pay for the FSM. I've never seen documentation saying that 12 is the "start of codes", but Dan Stern (who knows a whole lot more about this than me) asserts this is the case, and I've verified it on a couple of cars. However (Dan correct me if I'm wrong!), I believe if you only see 12 and 55, it means "Memory standby power recently lost" (this is the translation I find in tables), which has a variety of possible causes, most of them related to either a bad connection someplace. I've just ordered a new Logic Module, and am waiting for it to arrive> (today/tomorrow), so keeping my fingers crossed. If this doesn't work,> I am at a loss to fix this car that up until now has been so good to> us. The sad thing is, it's entirely possible this will "fix" it -- not because there was anything wrong with the old one, but because installing the new one will jostle the wires and reseat the connectors. -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer
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Bob Shuman 7 April 2005 00:53:47 [ permanent link ]
	12 means the battery was recently disconnected. 55 is end of codes. As to starting, this requires, fuel, spark, and compression. You have checked two of the three. I'd look at the timing belt as I believe the 2.5L has one. Did you get it back on correctly and were all the timing marks aligned. If not the timing belt, then look at the head gasket work you did, although it is hard to imagine it being bad enough not to start. Bob "Viper2" <net2000man@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1112817148.528087.319000@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...> I'm reaching out to those Chrysler/Plymouth gurus out there for help.> I'm almost done with this vehicle, despite replacing the head gasket> and exhaust system recently. Here's what has happened - I've checked the error codes via the ignition switch 'on-off-on-off-on'> sequence, and all I get is '12 55'. If I'v read the Chilton's manual> correctly, a code 12 is supposed to be "transaxle unlock relay", which> for the life in me I have never heard of, unless they're referencing a> neutral safety switch. If anyone can tell me if I've read the code> incorrectly I'd sure like to know. I thought the code 12 was the> opening sequence for any/all codes off the ignition switch method, but> maybe I'm wrong?
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Maxpower 7 April 2005 03:39:11 [ permanent link ]
	"Viper2" <net2000man@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1112817148.528087.319000@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...> I'm reaching out to those Chrysler/Plymouth gurus out there for help.> I'm almost done with this vehicle, despite replacing the head gasket> and exhaust system recently. Here's what has happened -> 1 - Started the car to leave the office, it stalled out and wouldn't> restart. I have ample spark and fuel delivery.> 2 - So far I have replaced: plugs, wires, ignition coil, MAP sensor,> ECM (power module located along driver-side fender wall behind the> battery), fuel filter, distributor cap, rotor and ignition pickup (Hall> Effect sensor).> 3 - The car turns over fine, gets gas into the EFI throttle body> (single fuel injector) and spark is ample on each plug/wire, it just> won't "catch".> I've checked the error codes via the ignition switch 'on-off-on-off-on'> sequence, and all I get is '12 55'. If I'v read the Chilton's manual> correctly, a code 12 is supposed to be "transaxle unlock relay", which> for the life in me I have never heard of, unless they're referencing a> neutral safety switch. If anyone can tell me if I've read the code> incorrectly I'd sure like to know. I thought the code 12 was the> opening sequence for any/all codes off the ignition switch method, but> maybe I'm wrong?> I've just ordered a new Logic Module, and am waiting for it to arrive> (today/tomorrow), so keeping my fingers crossed. If this doesn't work,> I am at a loss to fix this car that up until now has been so good to> us.> Does anyoe have any ideas what else may be the culprit here??> Thanks to all of you in advance! Back to basics. if you have fuel. spark and compression it should start, but do you know if all these are in proper time? Have you checked the timing belt for proper settings?>
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Maxpower 7 April 2005 03:46:09 [ permanent link ]
	"Joe Pfeiffer" <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote in message news:1bsm23y7tj.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu...> "Viper2" <net2000man@yahoo.com> writes:> I'm reaching out to those Chrysler/Plymouth gurus out there for help.> > I'm almost done with this vehicle, despite replacing the head gasket> > and exhaust system recently. Here's what has happened -> > 1 - Started the car to leave the office, it stalled out and wouldn't> > restart. I have ample spark and fuel delivery.> > 2 - So far I have replaced: plugs, wires, ignition coil, MAP sensor,> > ECM (power module located along driver-side fender wall behind the> > battery), fuel filter, distributor cap, rotor and ignition pickup (Hall> > Effect sensor).> If you had ample fuel and ignition, why did you replace all these> parts? It's a whole lot cheaper and less frustrating to figure out> what's wrong first, and then only replace what you need to.> I've checked the error codes via the ignition switch 'on-off-on-off-on'> > sequence, and all I get is '12 55'. If I'v read the Chilton's manual> > correctly, a code 12 is supposed to be "transaxle unlock relay", which> > for the life in me I have never heard of, unless they're referencing a> > neutral safety switch. If anyone can tell me if I've read the code> > incorrectly I'd sure like to know. I thought the code 12 was the> > opening sequence for any/all codes off the ignition switch method, but> > maybe I'm wrong?> First off, toss the Chilton's and get a real factory service manual.> Quite a few people claim they can't afford the FSM; the way you're> throwing money at this problem, you can certainly pay for the FSM.> I've never seen documentation saying that 12 is the "start of codes",> but Dan Stern (who knows a whole lot more about this than me) asserts> this is the case, and I've verified it on a couple of cars. However> (Dan correct me if I'm wrong!), I believe if you only see 12 and 55,> it means "Memory standby power recently lost" (this is the translation> I find in tables), which has a variety of possible causes, most of> them related to either a bad connection someplace.> I've just ordered a new Logic Module, and am waiting for it to arrive> > (today/tomorrow), so keeping my fingers crossed. If this doesn't work,> > I am at a loss to fix this car that up until now has been so good to> > us.> The sad thing is, it's entirely possible this will "fix" it -- not> because there was anything wrong with the old one, but because> installing the new one will jostle the wires and reseat the> connectors.> -- > Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605> Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002> New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer The code 55 means it is the end of the sequence, When you disconnect the battery you will get a code 11 and 12 and once it is started the code 11 should go away. the code 12 will go away after about 15 key cycles, that code is a normal fault if the battery was disconnected Glenn Beasley Chrysler Tech
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Shiden_kai 7 April 2005 05:59:59 [ permanent link ]
	Nomen Nescio wrote: Reliants are somewhat deficient in other areas, also: the timing belt is time consuming to replace. Huh?....I guess you haven't done many of them have you? They are a piece of cake. As is replacing the head gasket. All in all, a great little car that is easy to repair, cheap to fix, and is a good little driver. Ian
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Joe Pfeiffer 7 April 2005 09:09:28 [ permanent link ]
	Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> writes:> I've never seen documentation saying that 12 is the "start of codes",> but Dan Stern (who knows a whole lot more about this than me) asserts> this is the case, and I've verified it on a couple of cars. However> (Dan correct me if I'm wrong!), I believe if you only see 12 and 55,> it means "Memory standby power recently lost" (this is the translation> I find in tables), which has a variety of possible causes, most of> them related to either a bad connection someplace. Ah, wasn't thinking before: did you run codes before you started randomly replacing parts, or do you only know the 12 is there after doing all that? If the latter, then it's likely meaningless in any case since I assume you disconnected the battery to replace the power module. -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer
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Joe Pfeiffer 7 April 2005 09:12:06 [ permanent link ]
	"Viper2" <net2000man@yahoo.com> writes: I actually checked the timing marks and looked at the rotor location to> verify timing. As the car currently doesn't start, I have no way of> putting a timing light on it at the moment to check the timing. Unless> you suggest that I use the timing light while attempting to crank the> engine over? Other than that, the timing appears to be dead-on, and the> belt is snug, so there's plenty of tension there. No, the suggestion was to check timing marks on the three sprockets. He was talking about valve timing, not ignition timing. I am replacing the logic module at this point because it is the> original one, and is dated Sept of 1986, as was the power module. I> know several others have claimed that new (re-manufactured) power> modules can sometimes also be bad, but I'm hoping/guessing that my> replacement is OK. Now if the logic module checks out OK, I will let> you all know. You're replacing the logic module for no better reason than its age???? -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer
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Maxpower 7 April 2005 12:15:35 [ permanent link ]
	"Joe Pfeiffer" <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote in message news:1bzmwbnpax.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu...> "Viper2" <net2000man@yahoo.com> writes:> I actually checked the timing marks and looked at the rotor location to> > verify timing. As the car currently doesn't start, I have no way of> > putting a timing light on it at the moment to check the timing. Unless> > you suggest that I use the timing light while attempting to crank the> > engine over? Other than that, the timing appears to be dead-on, and the> > belt is snug, so there's plenty of tension there.> No, the suggestion was to check timing marks on the three sprockets.> He was talking about valve timing, not ignition timing.> I am replacing the logic module at this point because it is the> > original one, and is dated Sept of 1986, as was the power module. I> > know several others have claimed that new (re-manufactured) power> > modules can sometimes also be bad, but I'm hoping/guessing that my> > replacement is OK. Now if the logic module checks out OK, I will let> > you all know.> You're replacing the logic module for no better reason than its> age????> -- > Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605> Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002> New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer Hey the guy has money, what can you say.
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Steve 7 April 2005 18:33:47 [ permanent link ]
	Viper2 wrote: I actually checked the timing marks and looked at the rotor location to> verify timing. As the car currently doesn't start, I have no way of> putting a timing light on it at the moment to check the timing. Unless> you suggest that I use the timing light while attempting to crank the> engine over? Exactly. Works great!
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Me! 7 April 2005 18:35:32 [ permanent link ]
	Here is an explanation on how to check the valve timing.. (the easy way) courtesy of turbovan.net http://www.turbovan.net/timing.htm
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Maxpower 7 April 2005 22:34:59 [ permanent link ]
	"Steve" <no@spam.thanks> wrote in message news:_qmdnRQfYNJW2cjfRVn-pg@texas.net...> Viper2 wrote:> I actually checked the timing marks and looked at the rotor location to> > verify timing. As the car currently doesn't start, I have no way of> > putting a timing light on it at the moment to check the timing. Unless> > you suggest that I use the timing light while attempting to crank the> > engine over?> Exactly. Works great! If the cam gear is out, the crank and distributor could still be set , you would be wasting your time trying to check with a timing lite. Take the cover off the cam sproket and make sure all 3 are lined up!!
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Steve 7 April 2005 23:13:41 [ permanent link ]
	maxpower wrote: "Steve" <no@spam.thanks> wrote in message> news:_qmdnRQfYNJW2cjfRVn-pg@texas.net...> Viper2 wrote:>> I actually checked the timing marks and looked at the rotor location to>>>verify timing. As the car currently doesn't start, I have no way of>>>putting a timing light on it at the moment to check the timing. Unless>>>you suggest that I use the timing light while attempting to crank the>>>engine over?>> Exactly. Works great!> If the cam gear is out, the crank and distributor could still be set , you> would be wasting your time trying to check with a timing lite.> Take the cover off the cam sproket and make sure all 3 are lined up!!> Agreed. I said check the spark timing after checking all 3 shafts.
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Tango 8 April 2005 04:05:09 [ permanent link ]
	"Viper2" <net2000man@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1112824871.043059.99700@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com: Thanks for your input, gentlemen. Yes, the timing belt was replaced &> timing was set correctly back in December, and the car's been running> like a dream ever since. I also have checked compression, and there's> no problem there. I have pulled the timing cover and verified the> position of the rotor in the distributor, so it looks like the belt has> not jumped/skipped any teeth.> I can honestly tell you once I get this car out of my driveway, I will> be ordering up the service manual for it and chucking my Chilton's> guide away once and for all. Actually I may go with the AllData> CD-based manual for this model, unless that's not a good idea. I have the 1987 FSM as I once owned a 1987 Plymouth Reliant. I don't care if I sell them or not, but they are a set of three and in perfect condition. If you are interested I will sell them for $30 plus shipping. Give me a good email if interested. I need a set for a 94 Acclaim and the guy wants $40 dollars plus shipping and I can't get him on the phone to verify the condition.
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Daniel J. Stern 8 April 2005 06:03:29 [ permanent link ]
	On Wed, 6 Apr 2005, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: I've never seen documentation saying that 12 is the "start of codes",> but Dan Stern (who knows a whole lot more about this than me) asserts> this is the case, and I've verified it on a couple of cars. 12 means "Start of codes" _when you are reading the codes via the MIL on the dashboard_ using the key on-off-on-off-on method. (Dan correct me if I'm wrong!), I believe if you only see 12 and 55, it> means "Memory standby power recently lost" With some computer calibrations, yes. With others, it means "Start of codes, end of codes".
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Joe Pfeiffer 8 April 2005 09:24:37 [ permanent link ]
	"Daniel J. Stern" <dastern@127.0.0.1> writes: On Wed, 6 Apr 2005, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:> I've never seen documentation saying that 12 is the "start of codes",> > but Dan Stern (who knows a whole lot more about this than me) asserts> > this is the case, and I've verified it on a couple of cars.> 12 means "Start of codes" _when you are reading the codes via the MIL on> the dashboard_ using the key on-off-on-off-on method. Which is, if I read his post correctly, the situation he is describing. (Dan correct me if I'm wrong!), I believe if you only see 12 and 55, it> > means "Memory standby power recently lost"> With some computer calibrations, yes.> With others, it means "Start of codes, end of codes". Then... how would the car be able to indicate recent power loss with no other codes? -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer
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Re: 1987 Plymouth Reliant 2.5L won't start (early model)

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