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CarGuru > Chrysler > Scary scenerio? 4 April 2005 00:27:59

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Scary scenerio?
Wvk 2 April 2005 22:05:27
	On the local (Houston) NPR broadcast this AM: "in which the opening scenario is a terrorist crashing a 747 into the sulfur cleaning towers up near Ras Tanura in northeastern Saudi Arabia. Since you have to get sulfur out of the Saudi oil that would take several million barrels, probably around five or six million barrels a day, off line for a year or more. And Bud here is an old artilleryman. He and I were talking the other day; I think he'll tell you you probably don't need a big 747 to do that. A pretty skilled guy with some orders could probably do it." Try this link: http://www.loe.org/index.htm Then go to Oil & National security roundtable WVK
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MoPar Man 2 April 2005 23:04:14 [ permanent link ]
	WVK wrote: terrorist crashing a 747 into the sulfur cleaning towers > up near Ras Tanura in northeastern Saudi Arabia. The only thing worse is the terrorists that run American oil companies. They haven't built a new gasoline refinery for more than 25 years, insuring that there is an ever thinner gap between gasoline demand and supply, insuring the highest possible market price for gasoline. The problem (so I've heard) isin't that Saudi Arabia can't supply the US with all the oil it needs. The problem is that the US lacks sufficient gasoline refining capacity to keep up with demand. The spectacular gas refinery explosion that happened recently (in Texas?) I'm sure just makes matters worse - and I bet oil company executives were over-joyed that even more refinery capacity was taken out of service, thus insuring that gas prices would head even higher. Same thing happened in California a few years ago. Power generating stations were taken off line to reduce electricity supply so that they could fetch higher prices.
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Paul 3 April 2005 00:50:15 [ permanent link ]
	MoPar Man wrote:> WVK wrote:> terrorist crashing a 747 into the sulfur cleaning towers> > up near Ras Tanura in northeastern Saudi Arabia.> The only thing worse is the terrorists that run American oil> companies. They haven't built a new gasoline refinery for more than> 25 years, insuring that there is an ever thinner gap between gasoline> demand and supply, insuring the highest possible market price for> gasoline.> The problem (so I've heard) isin't that Saudi Arabia can't supply the> US with all the oil it needs. The problem is that the US lacks> sufficient gasoline refining capacity to keep up with demand.> The spectacular gas refinery explosion that happened recently (in> Texas?) I'm sure just makes matters worse - and I bet oil company> executives were over-joyed that even more refinery capacity was taken> out of service, thus insuring that gas prices would head even higher.> Same thing happened in California a few years ago. Power generating> stations were taken off line to reduce electricity supply so that they> could fetch higher prices. Even worse are the environmental terrorists that tell the rest of us what we should have or have not. Lack of refineries is not due to oil companies. Its because of taxes and the environmental idiots.
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Slartibartfast 3 April 2005 01:24:25 [ permanent link ]
	"« Paul »" <"=?iso-8859-1?Q?=A0stayp?="@notsuoh.rr.moc> wrote in message news:424F05EF.9EF41DC5@notsuoh.rr.moc...> Even worse are the environmental terrorists that tell the> rest of us what we should have or have not.> Lack of refineries is not due to oil companies.> Its because of taxes and the environmental idiots. Presumably by "environmental terrorists" you mean normal people in countries other than the US who are horrified by the amount of energy which that country consumes as a proportion of the world's consumption, and by the apparent inability of Americans to understand that global warming has started and will continue to get much worse as we all continue to use obscene amounts of energy. -- Slartibartfast To reply by email, remove the FJORDS from my address
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Daniel J. Stern 3 April 2005 01:40:21 [ permanent link ]
	On Sat, 2 Apr 2005, Slartibartfast wrote: "« Paul »" <"=?iso-8859-1?Q?=A0stayp?="@houston.rr.com> wrote: Even worse are the environmental terrorists that tell the rest of us> > what we should have or have not. Lack of refineries is not due to oil> > companies. Its because of taxes and the environmental idiots. Presumably by "environmental terrorists" you mean normal people in countries> other than the US who are horrified by the amount of energy which that> country consumes as a proportion of the world's consumption ...while conveniently ignoring the amount of production per unit of energy consumed in the US. "Environmental terrorists" is overstating the case and is unnecessarily inflammatory, but the man does have a good point: Laws enacted for the putative benefit of the environment frequently have unintended countereffects. Examples abound: A company can manufacture its widget in Georgia (USA), which requires compliance with extensive and expensive environmental and safety laws. Or, that same company can manufacture its widget in Guangdong (China), with no such laws. The cost of moving production to China, absorbing the higher defect rate, transporting the raw materials and finished products to and from China, and paying import duty, all lumped together, still pale in comparison to the cost of complying with myriad poorly-coordinated, compliance-intensive laws in the US. That's not to say there should be no environmental or safety laws. Obviously such laws are needed. The thing is, self-proclaimed "environmentalists" are frequently guilty of exactly what they condemn: They push for strict laws without regard to the implementation impact upon the regulated party, then when the regulated party packs up and moves elesewhere, the "environmentalists" crow about having gotten a polluter to pack up and leave town. Thing is, the regulated party didn't just go to that magical "away" place where many think car exhaust and household trash disappear to. Instead, the regulated party went to China. The resource consumption, local and global pollution caused by the manufacture and international transport of those widgets is now MUCH higher, it's just out of sight and out of mind. Net result: Negative. If there's to be any _meaningful_ progress, smart and coordinated solutions will have to be developed. DS (Waiting to see if you'll fall into my trap and claim that Kyoto constitutes a smart and coordinated solution)
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Wvk 3 April 2005 02:06:18 [ permanent link ]
	В« Paul В» wrote: MoPar Man wrote:> WVK wrote:>> terrorist crashing a 747 into the sulfur cleaning towers>>>up near Ras Tanura in northeastern Saudi Arabia.>> The only thing worse is the terrorists that run American oil>>companies. They haven't built a new gasoline refinery for more than>>25 years, insuring that there is an ever thinner gap between gasoline>>demand and supply, insuring the highest possible market price for>>gasoline.>> The problem (so I've heard) isin't that Saudi Arabia can't supply the>>US with all the oil it needs. The problem is that the US lacks>>sufficient gasoline refining capacity to keep up with demand.>> The spectacular gas refinery explosion that happened recently (in>>Texas?) I'm sure just makes matters worse - and I bet oil company>>executives were over-joyed that even more refinery capacity was taken>>out of service, thus insuring that gas prices would head even higher.>> Same thing happened in California a few years ago. Power generating>>stations were taken off line to reduce electricity supply so that they>>could fetch higher prices.> Even worse are the environmental terrorists that tell the> rest of us what we should have or have not.> Lack of refineries is not due to oil companies.> Its because of taxes and the environmental idiots. No doubt true. But all this is somewhat off the track regarding the the linked article. Are Mid East oil supplies as vulnerable to terrorists as Woosley and MacFarlane argue? WVK
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Joe 3 April 2005 02:47:47 [ permanent link ]
	"Slartibartfast" <slarti@celynnen.FJORDSdemon.co.uk> wrote in message news:d2n2ig$ng0$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...> "« Paul »" <"=?iso-8859-1?Q?=A0stayp?="@notsuoh.rr.moc> wrote in message > news:424F05EF.9EF41DC5@notsuoh.rr.moc...>> Even worse are the environmental terrorists that tell the>> rest of us what we should have or have not.>> Lack of refineries is not due to oil companies.>> Its because of taxes and the environmental idiots.> Presumably by "environmental terrorists" you mean normal people in > countries other than the US who are horrified by the amount of energy > which that country consumes No, of course not. Those people have no input into new refinery construction. He was talking about domestic environmentalists who are easily capable of stopping any new chemical processing site from being developed. There hasn't been one since the70's. If you couldn't figure that out from the context, you're a fool. If you just deliberately acted stupid so you could change the subject to something that's more important, then I agree with you.
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Bill Putney 3 April 2005 03:32:53 [ permanent link ]
	Slartibartfast wrote: "В« Paul В»" <"=?iso-8859-1?Q?=A0stayp?="@notsuoh.rr.moc> wrote in message > news:424F05EF.9EF41DC5@notsuoh.rr.moc...> Even worse are the environmental terrorists that tell the>>rest of us what we should have or have not.>>Lack of refineries is not due to oil companies.>>Its because of taxes and the environmental idiots.> Presumably by "environmental terrorists" you mean normal people in countries > other than the US... How can those outside the U.S. impose those restrictions? No, you idiot, he's talking about the enemy within. who are horrified by the amount of energy which that> country consumes as a proportion of the world's consumption, and by the > apparent inability of Americans to understand that global warming has > started and will continue to get much worse as we all continue to use > obscene amounts of energy. A professor who was a neighbor of mine has a rubber stamp made that says EFBS that he stanps with red ink onto certain test discussion answers when he grades them. The "EF" stands for "extra fine". Your post should be so stamped. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x')
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Bill Putney 3 April 2005 03:43:31 [ permanent link ]
	MoPar Man wrote: ...Same thing happened in California a few years ago. Power generating> stations were taken off line to reduce electricity supply so that they> could fetch higher prices. Uhh - you mean when California, in the name of "saving the world", stupidly passed legislation blocking any increase in capacity, thus cutting their own throats? That's like handing a guy that you know to be a mugger a knife so he can mug you, and then pointing at him for the rest of the world to feel sorry for you at what he did to you. The primary thought from the rest of the sane world is not what a nasty guy the mugger was, but what an idiot you were to hand him the knife. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x')
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Art 3 April 2005 08:31:35 [ permanent link ]
	Next Bill, you are going to tell us that Enron was run by a bunch of honest guys trying to find cheap energy for their grandma's. "Bill Putney" <bptn@kinez.net> wrote in message news:d2nan4$h8v$1@news.isdn.net...> MoPar Man wrote:> ...Same thing happened in California a few years ago. Power generating>> stations were taken off line to reduce electricity supply so that they>> could fetch higher prices.> Uhh - you mean when California, in the name of "saving the world", > stupidly passed legislation blocking any increase in capacity, thus > cutting their own throats?> That's like handing a guy that you know to be a mugger a knife so he can > mug you, and then pointing at him for the rest of the world to feel sorry > for you at what he did to you.> The primary thought from the rest of the sane world is not what a nasty > guy the mugger was, but what an idiot you were to hand him the knife.> Bill Putney> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my > adddress with the letter 'x')
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Tango 3 April 2005 13:01:30 [ permanent link ]
	"« Paul »" <" stayp"@notsuoh.rr.moc> wrote in news:424F05EF.9EF41DC5@notsuoh.rr.moc: MoPar Man wrote:>> WVK wrote:>> terrorist crashing a 747 into the sulfur cleaning towers>> > up near Ras Tanura in northeastern Saudi Arabia.>> The only thing worse is the terrorists that run American oil>> companies. They haven't built a new gasoline refinery for more than>> 25 years, insuring that there is an ever thinner gap between gasoline>> demand and supply, insuring the highest possible market price for>> gasoline.>> The problem (so I've heard) isin't that Saudi Arabia can't supply the>> US with all the oil it needs. The problem is that the US lacks>> sufficient gasoline refining capacity to keep up with demand.>> The spectacular gas refinery explosion that happened recently (in>> Texas?) I'm sure just makes matters worse - and I bet oil company>> executives were over-joyed that even more refinery capacity was taken>> out of service, thus insuring that gas prices would head even higher.>> Same thing happened in California a few years ago. Power generating>> stations were taken off line to reduce electricity supply so that they>> could fetch higher prices.> Even worse are the environmental terrorists that tell the> rest of us what we should have or have not.> Lack of refineries is not due to oil companies.> Its because of taxes and the environmental idiots.> Better yet, right wing idiots who don't understand or care that once the water, atmosphere, and land are polluted, mankind cannot have any quality of life. It is true that government agencies sometimes overstep and don't use common sense, but more often they wait until the damage is done by large corporations and the citizens are left to clean up the mess and pay the bill.
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Tango 3 April 2005 13:19:46 [ permanent link ]
	"Joe" <Joe@dontspam.net> wrote in news:uiF3e.913$yL2.342@fe08.lga: Presumably by "environmental terrorists" you mean normal people in >> countries other than the US who are horrified by the amount of energy>> which that country consumes> No, of course not. Those people have no input into new refinery > construction. He was talking about domestic environmentalists who are> easily capable of stopping any new chemical processing site from being> developed. There hasn't been one since the70's.> If you couldn't figure that out from the context, you're a fool. If> you just deliberately acted stupid so you could change the subject to> something that's more important, then I agree with you. > Anybody who believes that environmental laws are responsible for the lack of new refineries probably has stock in oil companies or they are simply morons who probably believed all the lies by Enron about the sudden lack of generating capacity and other lies causing power shortages in California, which were blamed on environmental laws blocking new power lines and etc. It is utterly amazing at the number of complete idiots in the U.S. who either smoked too much dope or believe that everyone should be equally stupid and are doing their part to prove it.
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Bill Putney 3 April 2005 18:07:50 [ permanent link ]
	Art wrote:> Next Bill, you are going to tell us that Enron was run by a bunch of honest > guys trying to find cheap energy for their grandma's. Why yes! How did you know!? That is uncanny. So you're going to pretend that California did not hand them the knife? The people were victimized by their own stupidity and denial of reality. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x')> "Bill Putney" <bptn@kinez.net> wrote in message > news:d2nan4$h8v$1@news.isdn.net...> MoPar Man wrote:>> ...Same thing happened in California a few years ago. Power generating>>>stations were taken off line to reduce electricity supply so that they>>>could fetch higher prices.>> Uhh - you mean when California, in the name of "saving the world", >>stupidly passed legislation blocking any increase in capacity, thus >>cutting their own throats?>> That's like handing a guy that you know to be a mugger a knife so he can >>mug you, and then pointing at him for the rest of the world to feel sorry >>for you at what he did to you.>> The primary thought from the rest of the sane world is not what a nasty >>guy the mugger was, but what an idiot you were to hand him the knife.>> Bill Putney>>(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my >>adddress with the letter 'x')
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Bill Putney 3 April 2005 18:27:26 [ permanent link ]
	tango wrote: Anybody who believes that environmental laws are responsible for the lack > of new refineries probably Anyone who believes that is not the case is in denial of reality. ...has stock in oil companies or they are simply > morons who probably believed all the lies by Enron about the sudden lack of > generating capacity and other lies causing power shortages in California, > which were blamed on environmental laws blocking new power lines and etc. So you don't see any connection between (1) Legal blocking of increased capacity, (2) Subsequent lack of availability of higher capacity (duh!), and (3) Subsequent increased pricing of the commodity that was artificially put into a shortage situation by the legal blocking of increased capacity (double duh!)? In the same state that allows houses to be built in wooded areas, prevents the residents from clearing surrounding scrub (might damage the environment), and then sits in shock and amazement when fires sweep thru the same neighborhoods destroying most of the houses in same (and doing incalculable damage to same precious environment). I love liberal-think. It is utterly amazing at the number of complete idiots in the U.S. who > either smoked too much dope or believe that everyone should be equally > stupid and are doing their part to prove it. Look in the mirror, dude. The 60's were good to you. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x')
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MoPar Man 3 April 2005 19:07:51 [ permanent link ]
	tango wrote:> >> > terrorist crashing a 747 into the sulfur cleaning towers> >> > up near Ras Tanura in northeastern Saudi Arabia.> >> The only thing worse is the terrorists that run American oil> >> companies. They haven't built a new gasoline refinery for> >> more than 25 years> > Even worse are the environmental terrorists that tell the> > rest of us what we should have or have not.> > Lack of refineries is not due to oil companies. Um, yes it is. Think about it. As a producer of a comodity (be it electricity or gasoline), when you or your corporate peers add more capacity to the production of said comodity, you are increasing the gap between supply and demand. The larger that gap is, the lower will be the price for that commodity on the open market. As long as demand doesn't exceed 100% of supply (and cause social caos and inevitable political/legislative involvement) then if the industry as a whole can manage this balancing act then they can insure the best profitability. What industry would bring an additional plant on-line that would lead to the depreciation of the market value of the output of that plant and all similar plants? Car production is an example where there is a relatively open and competitive market (on the production side) and it leads to situations like car makers having a glut of cars in inventory from time to time. That situation simply does not exist in the energy production sector because (probably) of a greater degree of collusion in that industry, and the realization that there really is no potential for foreign invovement (the Jap's can set up a car plant in Kentucky, but have you ever seen a Jap energy plant anywhere in the US?). Better yet, right wing idiots who don't understand or care that> once the water, atmosphere, and land are polluted, mankind> cannot have any quality of life. If mankind wants a high quality of life and the preservation of natural ecosystems then mankind better start cutting it's reproductive rate and begin to lower it's population. You can blame the dogma and directives of various religious beliefs that advocate the duty to reproduce leading to an ever increasing human population as god's will. When it comes down to human population vs ecology, the major religions of the earth have always advocated on the side of greater human population growth and have been more than content to let the ecology of the planet "go to hell" if it meant more real estate and more resources for people. The pope is dead, and another similarly-minded neanderthal will soon replace him. Too bad that faith-based religion won't be buried with him.
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Sarge 3 April 2005 21:56:46 [ permanent link ]
	Someone wrote: "Anybody who believes that environmental laws are responsible for the lack of new refineries probably has stock in oil companies or they are simply morons who probably believed all the lies by Enron about the sudden lack of generating capacity and other lies causing power shortages in California, which were blamed on environmental laws blocking new power lines and etc. It is utterly amazing at the number of complete idiots in the U.S. who either smoked too much dope or believe that everyone should be equally stupid and are doing their part to prove it." I live 5 miles from the last refinery built in the US. The name of that refinery is Marathon-Ashland Oil Refinery in Garyville, LA. I do not work for them but do work for another major chemical company that also has several oil refineries. The area I live in has several other grain elevators, chemical plants and oil refineries that are lined up and down both sides of the Mississippi River. In the last 10 years, several of theses facilities have shut down either due to market conditions (supply and demand), cost of raw materials, inability to expand to increase production or they moved their operations overseas to reduce cost. Did we (US workers), who demand benefits and higher wages cause them to move or was that a contributing factor? Eight years ago the company I work for announce it was building a new state of the art facility with triple the production rate in China. The local staff was devastated because this meant that another 40 workers were going to lose their job. We fought back and the company decided to give us time to increase production by debottlenecking the unit. A unit that has been running at 120 percent above design capacity. A plan was laid out and permits applied for. The DEQ had public meetings to discuss the permits and we had over 800 people show up to protest against the expansion. The best part was only about 200 were local residents. Several environmental groups bus people to theses meetings from large urban areas paying them 25 dollars each to stand out front and protest. The DEQ denied the permits and the unit did not expand. Luckily market needs for the product had dropped and the Chinese plant did not get built. The unit continued to run until last year when it was shutdown and the company decided to longer manufacture that chemical as the EPA is trying to ban its use in the US. The same type of protest and rigorous permitting process has made doing business in both the oil business and chemical business tough in the US. The last refinery built in the US, Marathon-Ashland Oil refinery recently went through a permit process and built a coker unit to squeeze more gasoline and other products out of a barrel of oil. In the last 25 years, several chemical plants and oil refineries have shutdown. In my area several new plants have been attempted to be built but the permits to build were either denied by DEQ or local government due to public pressure or the companies took their business somewhere else (overseas). Refineries throughout the US are all running over 100 percent design capacity. Companies and DEQ have bowed down to public pressure to expand rather then build new. Environmental laws have hindered production due to limitation on equipment to prevent pollution. Good, yes but also bad. What the US needs is more new refineries are new production units within current facilities. Most facilities cannot expand past a certain point due to environmental laws. Such laws a required green zones around facilities. Many companies have been forced to buy out the community around them at more then market price. So the someone who wrote: "It is utterly amazing at the number of complete idiots in the U.S. who either smoked too much dope or believe that everyone should be equally stupid and are doing their part to prove it." Stay off the crack cocaine or get an education on what a barrel of oil produce. I will be looking for your reply by smoke signal since the computer you are using was built from chemicals made from a barrel of oil. Sarge
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Art 4 April 2005 00:36:37 [ permanent link ]
	You are right..... California passed deregulation laws based on the assumption that large private corporations were honest. How stupid can you get. By the way, gas is expensive because oil is expensive. The Chinese have signed numerous long term contracts for oil. They will be eating oil by the barrel starting now. Some experts expect $100 per barrel oil very soon. In which case the US will have to seriously reduce its appetite for gasoline and we will be happy that we did not waste money building those refineries you want. "Bill Putney" <bptn@kinez.net> wrote in message news:d2otbm$h2d$1@news.isdn.net...> Art wrote:>> Next Bill, you are going to tell us that Enron was run by a bunch of >> honest guys trying to find cheap energy for their grandma's.> Why yes! How did you know!? That is uncanny.> So you're going to pretend that California did not hand them the knife? > The people were victimized by their own stupidity and denial of reality.> Bill Putney> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my > adddress with the letter 'x')>> "Bill Putney" <bptn@kinez.net> wrote in message >> news:d2nan4$h8v$1@news.isdn.net...>> MoPar Man wrote:>>> ...Same thing happened in California a few years ago. Power generating>>>>stations were taken off line to reduce electricity supply so that they>>>>could fetch higher prices.>>> Uhh - you mean when California, in the name of "saving the world", >>>stupidly passed legislation blocking any increase in capacity, thus >>>cutting their own throats?>>> That's like handing a guy that you know to be a mugger a knife so he can >>>mug you, and then pointing at him for the rest of the world to feel sorry >>>for you at what he did to you.>>> The primary thought from the rest of the sane world is not what a nasty >>>guy the mugger was, but what an idiot you were to hand him the knife.>>> Bill Putney>>>(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my >>>adddress with the letter 'x')
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Bill Putney 4 April 2005 02:02:26 [ permanent link ]
	Art wrote:> You are right..... California passed deregulation laws based on the > assumption that large private corporations were honest... Yeah - I hear liberals talking constantly about how they are so impressed with the honesty of large corporations. Get real. How stupid can you> get.> By the way, gas is expensive because oil is expensive. The Chinese have > signed numerous long term contracts for oil. They will be eating oil by the > barrel starting now. Some experts expect $100 per barrel oil very soon... Doubtful. You can find an "expert" to say anything. In > which case the US will have to seriously reduce its appetite for gasoline > and we will be happy that we did not waste money building those refineries > you want. Hmmm - you'd think that the scarcer a commodity gets, the more efficient you need to become in the processing (in this case, squeeze as much finished product out of a barrel of crude - hard to do with old refineries, equipement, and processes). Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x')
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Sarge 4 April 2005 04:08:25 [ permanent link ]
	Someone wrote: "In which case the US will have to seriously reduce its appetite for gasoline and we will be happy that we did not waste money building those refineries you want." Its not just the gasoline consumption but our consumption for everything. Medicine, plastic, packaging, and other commodities including clothing all come from a barrel of crude. Some products such as clothing can be produced from other means (cotton) but most is produced by sythenthic means. The supply of oil and its use will never cease until the source is gone unless we learn to use alternative energy sources. We must change our daily living habits. We have to learn to reduce and recycle as much as possible. Sarge
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Tango 4 April 2005 10:44:47 [ permanent link ]
	Bill Putney <bptn@kinez.net> wrote in news:d2ouge$hnu$1@news.isdn.net: tango wrote:> Anybody who believes that environmental laws are responsible for the>> lack of new refineries probably> Anyone who believes that is not the case is in denial of reality.> ...has stock in oil companies or they are simply >> morons who probably believed all the lies by Enron about the sudden>> lack of generating capacity and other lies causing power shortages in>> California, which were blamed on environmental laws blocking new>> power lines and etc. > So you don't see any connection between (1) Legal blocking of> increased capacity, (2) Subsequent lack of availability of higher> capacity (duh!), and (3) Subsequent increased pricing of the commodity> that was artificially put into a shortage situation by the legal> blocking of increased capacity (double duh!)?> In the same state that allows houses to be built in wooded areas, > prevents the residents from clearing surrounding scrub (might damage> the environment), and then sits in shock and amazement when fires> sweep thru the same neighborhoods destroying most of the houses in> same (and doing incalculable damage to same precious environment). I> love liberal-think. > It is utterly amazing at the number of complete idiots in the U.S.>> who either smoked too much dope or believe that everyone should be>> equally stupid and are doing their part to prove it.> Look in the mirror, dude. The 60's were good to you.> Bill Putney> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my > adddress with the letter 'x')> Have you not heard the Enron tapes which validate the energy crisis in California was a completely manipulated scam by Enron and other energy companies. There was some contributing factors by politicians, who had their palms greased with money, and the we don't need any regulation zealots who allowed this to happen. You argument that other factors had anything to do with this scam is totally bogus. Kinda like the weapons of mass destructian intelligence confirmations.
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Tango 4 April 2005 11:24:35 [ permanent link ]
	"Sarge" <licker@lickersacademy.edu> wrote in news:d2q0hn02i4@enews1.newsguy.com: Someone wrote: "In which case the US will have to seriously reduce its> appetite for gasoline and we will be happy that we did not waste money> building those refineries you want."> Its not just the gasoline consumption but our consumption for> everything. Medicine, plastic, packaging, and other commodities> including clothing all come from a barrel of crude. Some products> such as clothing can be produced from other means (cotton) but most> is produced by sythenthic means. > The supply of oil and its use will never cease until the source is> gone unless we learn to use alternative energy sources. We must> change our daily living habits. We have to learn to reduce and> recycle as much as possible. > Sarge> I don't know if you were around in the seventies but I was living in N.Y. and people were trading Cadillacs for small tin cans they would have never been seen in except for the Oil Crisis. The lesson learned lasted about 3 or 4 years. People who are so dumb as to shop and ask only what are the payments, aren't going to conform to any restraints voluntarily until the situation becomes critical. The only real possible solution is to develop new energy sources and power plants {not power generating plants for you pinheads} and distribution systems which will take 20 years if an all out effort is undertaken. Unfortunately the oil producing countries will easily figure out a way to undermine or bribe governments to keep this from happening. By the way, I am amused by people who don't give any credit to global warming, but believe we will run out of Oil in the near future. As PT Barnum said, there's one born every minute.
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Tango 5 April 2005 06:23:09 [ permanent link ]
	Bill Putney <bptn@kinez.net> wrote in news:d2r3kl$lsa$1@news.isdn.net: tango wrote:>> Bill Putney <bptn@kinez.net> wrote in news:d2ouge$hnu$1@news.isdn.net:>> Have you not heard the Enron tapes which validate the energy crisis in >> California was a completely manipulated scam by Enron and other energy >> companies. >> There was some contributing factors by politicians, who had their palms >> greased with money, and the we don't need any regulation zealots who >> allowed this to happen.>> You argument that other factors had anything to do with this scam is >> totally bogus...> So you're saying that Enron paid politicians to pass legislation > forbidding capacity increases in CA, and that that was not done and > enabled by and for the environuts and their appeasement?> Bill Putney> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my > adddress with the letter 'x')> I said clearly the de regulation was passed by bribing politicians with political contributions and the zealots who believe all regulations are evil also played a role in allowing this fraud to happen. This legislation removed regulation of Power Utilities by the state. I know of no restriction legislation on generating capacity being passed. Do you have a reference for this legislative bill which was passed limiting capacity. There was plenty of capacity to avoid the debacle manipulated by Enron. The power was being sold out of state along with ordering shut downs for maintenance which wasn't necessary. You didn't answer the question, have you not heard the Enron tapes with managers laughing about sending power out of state to cause blackouts and ordering management to take generators off line for maintenance which was not needed to cause power shortages. You are making excuses for people who are on audio ordering these things done. Do you not watch TV at all, these tapes have been played many times the last 6 months. I believe several have pleaded guilty to various charges related to fraud.
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CarGuru > Chrysler > Scary scenerio? 4 April 2005 00:27:59

	see also: Chrysler-Dodge 2005 manuals REQ: 2006… Chrysler-Dodge 2005 manuals REQ: 2006… Chrysler-Dodge 2005 manuals REQ: 2006…		pass tests:		see also: ALFA 166 ICS CODE !!!!! DIY Car repsray

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