First, complete Holden V-6s are shipped from Australia to the United> States (?). Once in the USA, the engines are dismantled and the Holden> bits (heads, crank, etc) are discarded. Then the blocks are repackaged> with the Alfa bits (heads, cranks etc.) and re-shipped to the Alfa> Pomigliano D'arco factory near Naples for final assembly and testing.>

This incredible saga is presented by the magazine without them even> offering to explain:>

1) Why? Why doesn't Alfa just purchase the block castings from Holden> and have them shipped directly to Italy? Why use a foreign casting to> begin with?>

2) Is the Holden V-6 cast iron or cast aluminum? Since it's exactly the> same displacement as the old Alfa V-6, why do they bother?>

3) Won't having to buy complete engines from Holden and disassemble them> in a third country make this a real expensive proposition? Why America> where Alfas aren't even sold? Why are the Alfa heads and cranks packaged> with the engines in the USA? Are they being made here? Is this a> stop-gap arrangement or is it permanent?>

Finally, in my estimation, the heart of an Alfa IS it's engine. Without> an Alfa engine in the car, it's not even an Alfa Romeo any more. RIP> Alfa!>

-- > George Graves> ------------------>­ A sports car makes the journey more fun than the destination.>

I know those Italians have strange opinions about efficiency and > productivity and logistics, but I refuse to believe this is the way it works> in real (production) life. Maybe during the development??> I'm quite sure the engine cores will be shipped directly from Australia to> Italy.>

But on the other hand, Alfa has always had their own engines, even though> i.e. the 4 cyl TS engines have been developped from FIAT engines. Don't tell> me that the latest 16V TS engines are not considerd "typical"Alfa engines.> And, the JTS engines are developped in cooperation with an English > engineering company (forgot their name)> So, enough reasons to expect that Alfa have developped a real Alfa engine> using components of the Holden/GM engine.> And may be it helps, in the GM/FIAT engine co-makership the GM brands just> put another plastic cover on the Alfa/FIAT JTD engines; they don't bother> doing any engineering themselves.

alfistagj <alfistagjREMOVE.TH­IS@AND.THISchello.nl­> wrote:>

What he said, really.>

From what I understand, and it's the same with the Fiat based lumps,> Alfa just take the block, bolt on their own head and manifolds,> instantly transforming a heap of junk GM engine into a proper Alfa> engine.

alfistagj <alfistagjREMOVE.TH­IS@AND.THISchello.nl­> wrote:>

What he said, really.>

From what I understand, and it's the same with the Fiat based lumps,> Alfa just take the block, bolt on their own head and manifolds,> instantly transforming a heap of junk GM engine into a proper Alfa> engine.

I take exception to the word "proper" although otherwise it seem that> way. The CURRENT V-6 IS a real Alfa engine, however, designed, > originally, in the 1970's. They shared it with Lancia (but hell Ferrari> has even shared engines with Lancia) at one point, but it is an Alfa > lump. This Holden lump is embarrassing, really.

I take exception to the word "proper" although otherwise it seem that> way. The CURRENT V-6 IS a real Alfa engine, however, designed,> originally, in the 1970's. They shared it with Lancia (but hell Ferrari> has even shared engines with Lancia) at one point, but it is an Alfa> lump. This Holden lump is embarrassing, really.

"George Graves" wrote:>

It is hard to put into words quite how great an engine the Alfa V6 is. On> paper it is nothing spectacular and it is relatively uneconomical. Such that> modern turbo diesels of similar capacity are getting close on bhp and of> course have more torque.>

I have both a 2.0TS (GTV) and a 2.5 V6 (156). The TS is a fine engine but> the V6 is another level. Not just in power but in responsive and smoothness.> Not smoothness in the anaethetised swooshing of some exec cars, but a real> engine sound and feel along with a silky delivery.>

I recently did a lot of miles in a Renault 3.0 V6 and whilst performance was> on a par the engine just felt very ordinary. At 4000 RPM it feels more than> ready for another gear, the Alfa never feels strained right up to the 7000> rev limiter (which is remarkably easy to get to) and it doesn't feel like a> normal engine but something a bit more special. A 2.5 V6 Omega I was a> passenger in had the same very ordinary engine feel.>

Curiously my wife prefers driving her GTV because the V6 is too "free" and> simply wants to rev too easily.>

The Boxer in my previous 33 and the V6 in my 156 meet my expectations for> Italian engines. The TS feels a little bit strangled in comparison. Of> course feel is a very subjective thing and there can be no right answers but> the GM influence certainly concerns me too.>

Cheers> Tony

George Graves <gmgravesnos@pacbel­l.net> wrote:>

Why - all they take is the block. Which is probably the least important> part in terms of engine character, but the one which can cheaply be> sourced from elsewhere.

I feel exactly the same way. My 3.0 Liter SOHC V-6 in my Alfetta GTV-6> is on paper, quite ordinary. The V-6 in many Japanese and even Korean> cars look as if they would be better performers, but they are so bland> as to be boring by comparison. Not so the Alfa V-6. Every time I start> my car I get a tingle of excitement. And out on the road, I find myself> rolling the windows down in tunnels and next to barrier walls just to> hear the engine better. My 3.0 liter V-6 puts out about 230 HP with its> 'S' cams, porting and relieving, and its remapped ECU from an ex-racing> 75. My GTV-6 will do 0-60mph in about 5.8 seconds, and will pull it's> 7200 rpm redline in 5th gear for a top speed of 159.5 mph!. The engine> pulls endlessly with seemingly effortless power, it's extremely> responsive and flexible and loves to run at the upper end of it's rage.> It's the V-6 equivalent of the classic Ferrari V-12, and like that> timeless 3.0 liter mill, we'll never see its likes again.>

We'll have to wait to see if Alfa has been able to transform the prosaic> GM lump into something even approaching the glory of the original Alfa> V-6. I don't want to prejudge anything, but I will be very surprised if> the new V-6 anywhere near as good.>

-- > George Graves> ------------------>­ A sports car makes the journey more fun than the destination.>

As you say chaps the Alfa V6 is the best V6 the world has ever known &> to drop it for some other they must know what they are doing, my 156 V6> sounds & pulls through the gears like it has a life of its own, its> important for Alfa to get it right because Alfa people will only buy> the V6 if they are convinced it is the best V6 in the world or what is> the point?> Stuart

In article <1114364055.207812.­284170@g14g2000cwa.g­ooglegroups.com>,> "stuartalfa" <stuartalfa@aol.com­> wrote:>

The Holden V6 is NOT the best V-6 in the world. First of all, it's an> iron block which is going backwards, IMHO. Heavy, crude, and with the> Alfa aluminum heads, bound to have electrolysis problems (like the old> Jaguar XK engine). Not an Alfa without an Alfa engine.

George Graves <gmgravesnos@pacbel­l.net> wrote:>

There does seem to be a trend back towards cast iron blocks now, though.>

Isn't the existing V6 a cast iron block? - I know the 4-potters are.

No. The existing engine is an aluminum block.>

"George Graves" <gmgravesnos@pacbel­l.net> schreef in bericht > news:gmgravesnos-34­B4D7.21322124042005@­newssvr21-ext.news.p­rodigy.com...>

And the Alfa 4-potters are aluminium as well!!